'Fast trains' a step closer on Dublin to Cork route

[comcor]

Despite the title, it's a story about Irish Rail finances.

'Fast trains' a step closer on Dublin to Cork route

Minister for Transport Martin Cullen is expected to sign an order in the coming weeks which will see a €350 million increase in the level of CIÉ borrowing for new rail infrastructure which is guaranteed by the Government. John Downes reports.

This follows a ruling by the EU Commission that the guarantee does not constitute State aid.

This raises the permitted limit for the State guarantee from €250 million to €600 million and allows CIÉ to raise money with private banks to finance necessary investment.

In time, for example, this could see the speedier development of 200kmh "fast trains" along the Cork to Dublin route. These trains are currently the subject of a feasibility study by CIÉ.

If they prove to be viable, the new level of State guarantee might see the company proceeding with the construction of the necessary infrastructure through privately-raised finance, and seeking this money back from the Government at a later date.

It is also expected CIÉ will use its higher "credit rating" to implement key aspects of the Transport 21 initiative when they are needed, rather than waiting for the necessary Exchequer funding to come on-stream.

Similarly, smaller capital development works could be undertaken without having to seek Exchequer funds. These would then be repaid out of the company's own finances.

The EU Commission judgement, which was sought by the Government two years ago, has been warmly welcomed by a spokeswoman for Mr Cullen and a spokesman for Iarnród Éireann.

The EU Commissioner for Transport, Jacques Barrot, said it reaffirmed a "long-standing practice" of the commission.

He said under this practice supervising the construction of new transport infrastructure by a public authority is not an economic activity subject to competition law, but a sovereign decision of the member state.

However, this is under the condition that all potential users of the infrastructure enjoy "free and non-discriminatory access", he added.

The commission also noted that it had been told by Irish authorities that the rail network was currently in an unsatisfactory condition and in "urgent need" of investment.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Madness. They ought to use the money to buy more commuter railcars. I really dont see the need nor the demand for 200kph running all the way to Cork. By simple eleimination of the slow bits and removal of timetable padding, together with KRP, it makes the Cork run a lot quicker anyway. Any more money spent on it should only be considered if the CDE's become calcutta.

[Kevin K Kelehan]

I disagree I think it would be a good investment as journey times of two hours CBD to CBD between Dublin and Cork and probably 2 hours 15 for Limerick with a clockfaced railcar connection would be of immense benefit and give rail a clear edge over road transport therebye adding social as well as economic benefit.

The CDE sets can be deployed to any other route such as Galway, Westport, Waterford or Sligo if something is done with the 'Shannonbridge'

[James Shields]

As I understand it, this article just refers to the government being authorised to back IE's loans. High speed rail to Cork is one possible use for these loans, but in no way specified as the intention.

Originally Posted by thomasjstamp

Madness. They ought to use the money to buy more commuter railcars. I really dont see the need nor the demand for 200kph running all the way to Cork. By simple eleimination of the slow bits and removal of timetable padding, together with KRP, it makes the Cork run a lot quicker anyway. Any more money spent on it should only be considered if the CDE's become calcutta.

But in order to get rid of the slow bits on the Cork Dublin line, IE need to start a gradual relaying programme. It would be madness not to lay it to a standard that can support 200kph running down the road. If a significant portion of the line can take 200kph trains, it will obviously handle 160kph trains very well. The cost of building the line to 200kph will be a little higher than building it to 160kph, but it creates opportunities for the future.

Depending on how much of a hurry IE are in, it could take up to ten years to rebuild the whole line. It's only then that that you need to make a decision to buy 200kph stock. And the coaches are already 200kph capable, so all you need to do is buy new power cars.

I presume the government still have to approve projects, just they don't have to wait for funding to start.

[why_does_planning_suck]

I am surprised that the comments here do not stress how important this decision is. Over at the NRA , things did not get going full speed till wee brennan remade the contracts and organised a five year rolling budget.
The ability to take loans will act the same way. This will enable a lot to be done, make no mistake.

[Mark Gleeson]

Problem with this is its a very short term solution, the debt will simply climb rapidly to hit the new limit with interest payments to match. The fundamental problem is lack of timely funding from government.

When CIE was split the entire debt, €171 million if I recall correctly at 2002 prices was transferred to IE, the report into restructuring of CIE recommended it be cleared.

It remains to be seen what kind of spending power IE actually have, new and reopened lines requiring a works order are still DoT as IE have no power unless instructed, next question is the inverse when will the day come that IE refuse to carry out the ministers request, I'm thinking WRC here where management want nothing to do with the bit beyond Athenry. I'm all for balance regional development but thats the responsibilty of the county council

Fundamental issue here is rail services are run by politics not based on sound management principles, what is needed is to set Irish Rail up as a solid dept free commercial company without a single political appointee anywhere and let them get on with it

[why_does_planning_suck]

you don't vote pd do you !

only joking! however whether they take out a loan to do something or get the money direct from government all amounts to the same thing, as it is all government backed.

The difference is that it gives I.E. an more control over it's own finances . this is hugely important. A normal company would in theory be able to take out as much debt as it liked.

Posts merged. Please do not post a new post for every sentance. That is why we have the edit button - Paul

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by why_does_planning_suck

you don't vote pd do you !

God no but if you are in the business long enough you realise that everything is political the concept of a sound commmercial basis isn't there

Dublin Bus are the best example their hands are tied on timetabling, I'd love to take the rail timetable out and shred it and start again but then some local politico would climb the wall and moan about the fact the train at 8:15 that has ran at 8:15 since the stone age now left at 8:00 instead, the fact there are more trains means nothing, the vote of the complainant does

You will never see the management of a semi state publically crisitise government policy as leaving them unable to do there job, the rare managers who do find themselves out of a job, e.g. Willie Walsh of Aer Lingus

[MrX]

200km/h service between Cork and Dublin does make sense in the medium term. Cork-Dublin is a major money spinner for Irish Rail. They can grow passenger numbers by offering a quality high speed product.

Cork's our only seriously large urban area outside of Dublin and is growing very rapidly. It has the size and the number of regular business travellers to sustain a 200km/h intercity link. Also, unlike Galway, it's far enough from Dublin to make intercity train service more attractive than motorway connections to many people.

Cork's urban population is over 300,000. There is absolutely no point looking at the official city population statistics as the city boundry's ridiculously tight. It's really like if Dublin city's population was only counted as the residents of Dublin 1,2,3 and 4. Cork City and County Councils are about to go into a major turf war, so you could see the official city population soar when the new boundaries are finalised. The simple fact is that the city council controlled area doesn't include most of the post 1950s suburban developments.

Having 200km/h service from Dublin to Limerick Junction also provides excellent fast access to Limerick city and the midwest.

West Cork and Kerry also form the country's most profitable tourism regions pulling in over 3 million visitors a year and producing about a billion in reveune (2004) - That's 1/4 of all of Ireland's tourism revenue. It's highly rail accessable via Cork City or any of the stations on the Mallow Branch line

To give you a breakdown of the 2004 figures:

Region: ---- Visitors (millions) ---- Revenue (Euro) ---- (revenue per visitor bracketed)
Dublin ---- 4.848 ---- 1371 million ---- (282.79)
Cork/Kerry ---- 3.057 ---- 922 million ---- (301.60)
Southeast ---- 2.089 ---- 420 million ---- (201.05)
Midlands/East---- 1.680 ---- 345 million---- (210.71)
West ---- 2.544 ---- 686 million---- (269.65)
Northwest ---- 1.290 ---- 302 million ---- (234.10)


Personally, I think 200km/h high quality service to Cork makes a whole lot of sense.

It's not that expensive either in the big scale of things.

Also, the Cork-Dublin line being efficient cuts down on the number of cars that would otherwise be carrying a single passenger on the 160mile route and also reduces the need for high environmental impact flights between the two cities.

From an environmental point of view high speed intercity rail's excellent. The amount of CO2 produced per passenger is much lower than any other form of land transport.

I would like to see IE teaming up with some of the car rental companies and offering Train + drive options.

e.g. you visit dublin, board a train link to say Tralee and have a hire-car waiting for you to cover the dingle area at your leisure.
or Dublin - Galway and onwards to the west.

Also, it would make a hell of a lot of sense on the Cork-Dublin route for business travellers.

i.e. drive to Kent station, park your car. Car parking included on your rail ticket.
Board the CDE to Dublin. Get out at heuston, pick up your hire car and you're in the city centre.
or visa versa.

Even with the CDE at its current speed a service like that would wipe the floor with Ryanair and Aer Arran. i.e. CityGold + discounted hire car at the station.

All they need to do is think outside the box a little and add value to the intercity services!

Public transport / bus-based tourism links should also be available as add-ins.
e.g. Dublin to Dingle on a single ticket.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I'd like to see what the comparative differance in times would be twixt the following:

1. 2ookph running Dublin Cork (including three stops, say)

2. Eliminate existing slow parts, put in KRP and eliminate timetable padding.

Divide the number in minuites by the cost. Is it worth it?

BTW I would love to see 200kph, it would be great. However, my kids go to school in a portacabin. Go figure.

[Kevin K Kelehan]

The fact that your children are educated in a portacabin is irrelevant so was I for 8 years and it did me no harm. There is a transport cake to be divided and in the last one 80-90% of the budget was spent on roads.

If inter-city travel is to be successful it needs an edge and speed is the most attractive asset rail has. 2 30 minutes hours Dublin Cork via rail & Luas office door to office door is the minimum standard business use demands. London - Manchester 160 miles train under 2 hours City door to City Door 2 hours 30 minutes.

[Thomas J Stamp]

But if the difference in the end is only something like 15-20 minuites what is the point? If it was 30 min to one hour I could understand the rationale behind it. How many people would it attract? These have to be the main priorities. there is no point in doing it if it dosnt put enough bums on seats. Thats why i thiunk the money is better spent elsewhere, preferably commuter railcars moving many more people over shorter disances.

I'm delighted you enjoyed your portacabin. Hope you would also enjoy getting treated in a portacabin attached to a hospital as well. Neither are acceptable in this day and age.

[Kevin K Kelehan]

I think the saving would exceed 20 minutes; if a train ran direct to Portarlington or Portlaoise or Thurles and then stopped at Limerick Junction and Mallow then times would fall in excess of this figure. Also as all trains in this bracket tilt so speed restrictions on the Mallow Cork section could be raised.

I understand you may have concerns on the building stock used in education and health but those are other issues which bare no relation to infrastructural investment and probably have more to do with HSE and school managment inefficiencies than anything else.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I think we need Mark in here pronto with the timings............. I cant see any Cork Dublin train not stopping at least in Portarlington (west connection) and Limerick Junction (Limerick, Waterford and Kerry connection if you go through Mallow) but more than likely also Thurles/Portloaise on Rotation.

With those stoppings and startings, assuming we get decent locos I'm still at a loss.

I know that the portacabin thingy is a diferent department and all that, the point I'm making is that unless there is a clear demand for a 200kph line, and a clearly demonstrated substantial improvement in timings there isnt any real point to it and I for one would not be happy watching several hundred million being spent to get a train somewhere 20 mins faster when it can get there 10 min faster simply by ironing out the stupidities in the current timetable.

How many times on this here board have we seen that such and such a Cork train can get into a station 10 mins ahread of schedule?

[why_does_planning_suck]

thomasjstamp is absolutely right to question whether upgrading the line to 200km/h is warranted . however i fear if he continues with his logic he will end up some where he doesn't expect to be.

That is there is no need for any rail connection to the airport , no need for any underground tram. there is ample space to free up the city with buses. there is a possible need for some trams , but electric buses are equally good.

We ought to built a railway line between cork and galway , and then divert the dublin to cork line to limerick, close everything else. ie. three rail lines two north south one east west.

Then split dublin bus 3 ways , and introduce competition. force the dublin airport authority to accept two private terminals (with the transport regulator deciding time slots).

In other words he wants to vote pd. And dispite hating mcdowell , so do i. ryanair proves that when things are run efficiently , cheaper means better faster more often and better time keeping.

[James Shields]

According to this site the distance between Dublin and Cork is roughly 160km, so a non-stop trip at 160kph should only take an hour (though I'd add 5 mins to each end for acceleration and deceleration. If we assume 3 stops, then it would 4 accelerations and 4 decelerations would add about 40 mins to the trip. I think most of us would be delighted with 1 hr 40 mins Dublin-Cork trip.

At 200kph the non-stop trip falls to 48 mins, or 1 hr 28 mins with stops. That's assuming nothing's done to improve the acceleration/deceleration.

Of course, there will always be curves that you won't make it round at full speed, so straightening out as many of those sections as possible will make at least as big a difference as new locos.

[Mark Gleeson]

I get 267km for Dublin Cork by the existing line which is not far off the as the crow flies distance

There is a relationship between passenger numbers and journey times, for every 1% reduction in journey time you get a proportional increase in passenger numbers

Considering Thurles is first stop 86.4 miles at 200kph should be looking at 50-55 minutes currently its 72 minutes, the best possible under the 165kph scenerio without shelling out for realignment is 65 minutes, I've done it in 64 minutes on a once off before but it needs to be repeatable, under the 165kph scenario with 3 stops you are looking at 2 hours 15 ish, thats 20 minutes better than current, go to 200kph and you cross the psychological 2 hour boundary and get 1 hour 55 ish, another 20 minutes off.

Up side is you need fewer train sets to run the service, 2 less in fact, demand would go through the roof meaning a need for every half hour.

There is a long standing rule of tumb you need to average 75 mph end to end, for the modern world and the 120 kph motorway limit its more like 90 mph end to end now.

Side benefits would mean much better track for all, higher capacity signalling, reduced journey times to Limerick, Tralee and others even at 160kph, if Cork went 200kph Tralee services should follow (use the 2 spare Cork sets), Limerick trains make too many stops to exploit the higher speeds, so accleration ranks higher than top speed

[ACustomer]

Dublin-Cork is approx 160 miles by road: miles not kms. It's 165.5 miles by rail, which is about 265 kms. Given acceleration performance of diesel trains it would be difficult to beat 2hours10 minutes with 3 stops, as opposed to 2.40 at present. However extending the existing 160 max to most of the line and getting rid of some of the really bad slacks through stations could easily chop 10 to 15 minutes off the journey, for a very small fraction of the cost of 200 kph.

[Kevin K Kelehan]

It is actually 240kms or 160 miles so regardless of stops you are looking at a direct non-stop time of no less than 1 hour 20 minutes.

In relation to acceleration - deceleration this is less of an issue as these units are designed to accelerate and decelerate at much higher rates.

In relation to locomotives these are not used in the diesel Voyager series which are double headed intergrated coaches with a cab and a mini gaurds van which takes up no more than 25% of a coach at either end.

Operationally Voyagers can match Pendolino (Electric) operationally whether this is a result of slight timetable padding or not I am not sure. But they are timetables at 125mph or 202 kph on the UK West Coast Line

[Thomas J Stamp]

thomasjstamp is absolutely right to question whether upgrading the line to 200km/h is warranted . however i fear if he continues with his logic he will end up some where he doesn't expect to be.

Bizzarre. I was thinking of putting a thread up tomorrow along the lines of "why are we bothering at all?" advocating ripping up the lines and turning P11 into a pub crawl through the abandoned stations.

I'm only trying to be relaistic. Kevin is talking about non-stop trains, new locos (which of course will be needed) and new track. IE will always want the trains to stop along the lines I've outlined. Mark has posted that by ironing out the stupidities you gain about 20 mins. So, for hundred of millions more you gain only a further 20 mins. I dont think that is justifyable when the same exact money (not talking about portacabins) can be used on Commuter railcars between Portlaoise, Longford, Kilkenny, Drougheda, out around Cork surburban, Galway - Athlone, even the first phase of the WRC.

This pot of money will not be around forever it should be used wisely not on vanity projects.

Edit: I would sooner gnaw off my right arm than join the PD's