CIE won’t let me on train’ -Wheel chair bound passenger claims!

Garrett Cummins · 18-08-2006, 13:20

Hi

I saw the attached in the local newspaper and was appalled, I assume that this effects all wheel chair bound passengers? Do P11 have a view on this?

http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/ne...ry.asp?j=23599

Mark Gleeson · 18-08-2006, 13:41

The following train types used on service ex Heuston are fully legally accessible under UK law, there not being any Irish legislation

1) 29000 railcars used Heuston - Kildare, coach clearly marked, ramp carried onboard, restraining strap and emergency contact button

2) CDE/MK4 used Heuston - Cork, all standard and first class coaches have a wheelchair space but not the buffet, ramp carried onboard (hidden in the wall next to the computer screen), restraining strap and emergency contact button fitted

From what I can make of the report it is clear that the wheelchair involved is far larger and heavier than that upon which the design and regulations allow for (bear in mind the UK law was the result of massive consultation), it probably won't even fit through the corridor and as a result Iarnrod Eireann are refusing them access on the grounds of safety. Legally they are right to do this and cannot be challenged since they will produce a document to indicate 100% compliance with the accessibility guidelines on all rollling stock ordered since it came into force.

The corridor per say on the new trains is wider than the old ones and is physically as wide as possible making it any larger would mean the accessible toilet cannot be fitted, one toilet, one luggage rack and 3 seats has already been sacrificed to make space thus even fully accessible coaches will still not work in this case

The older coaches have been adapted to carry a wheelchair in the buffet coach or control car where available but structural alterations are not permitted since they are just not possible

Wheelchair physically too big compared to the design laid down in the rules even if 100% compliance was provided they probably wouldn't fit

Edit
Having read it again it sounds like a complaint was filed through IE or the Rail Safety Commission (I would have done such if I witnessed this) and a warning has been issued to discontinue the practice or the book will be thrown at them. It would of course help to actually have a copy of the email since quotes are always selective

Derek Wheeler · 18-08-2006, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Edit
Having read it again it sounds like a complaint was filed through IE or the Rail Safety Commission (I would have done such if I witnessed this) and a warning has been issued to discontinue the practice or the book will be thrown at them. It would of course help to actually have a copy of the email since quotes are always selective

I don't see that myself.

The issue is actually quite straight forward.

The apparent "ban" only applies to electric wheelchairs. Ive seen the hard copy and thats what the lady in question is using in the photo. These types of wheelchair are much bigger than standard wheelchairs. The questions are, Is IE right to do this? Have they been instructed to do it via their own health and safety audit?

Mark is right about the wheelchair spec for trains on the Athy line.

While its an unfortunate affair, I would add the following opinion.

The ramps in Athy station are not a waste as a result of this incident. Standard wheelchairs can use them and can be accomodated a lot easier on the existing trains on the route. Ramps are also very beneficial to people with prams/buggies etc. The issue of accomodating larger wheelchairs in the design spec of new trains needs to be clarified. Finally, if IE are willing to accomodate a passenger in this type of wheelchair, by paying for a taxi/hackney to bring them to their final destination, that in my opinion is very good service.

This opinion is based on current accessibility policies of IE (A copy of which P11 have and is available from IE head office), the Nationalist article and not having seen the actual internal memo that is referred to.

Finally, I will add, that IEs accessibility booklet makes no mention of being unable to cater for large wheelchairs on accessible trains. So maybe there is a case of "making it up as we go along."

Mark Gleeson · 18-08-2006, 20:08

All the new trains are designed against the UK regulations which are fairly commonly used across Europe as best practice, basic fact is the wheelchair has to physically fit inside the train, all the post 1999 trains all measure up against the required standard and a reasonable effort has been made to retro fit basic accessibilty

The rules are known as RVAR, railway vehicle accessibility regulations which was the result of widespread discussion with interest groups. The rail operators and builders went up the wall but where forced to agree. There is a huge quantity of material available.

The issue appears that while the outer door is wide enough it is not possible for the wheelchair to turn through the door between the vestibule and the main cabin, the safety issue is that in the event of an accident the wheelchair would block 3 exits of the train, 2 doors and the intercarriage gangway

Given the size of these electric wheelchairs there is a strong possibilty they will not fit even on the full accessible intercity trains, chances are they will. We have seen the accessibilty features of the new train tried out and it was handled very professionally by the staff concerned and no negative comments, the new Cork trains have 3 times as many wheelchair spaces as the RVAR rule book demands, all passenger coaches are equiped

Derek Wheeler · 18-08-2006, 20:36

Interesting thing about the press run of the new trains was that the wheelchair passenger was in a standard wheelchair. Looks like the issue of electric wheelchairs is more complicated.

Let me put a call into the Irish wheelchair association and report back.

Mark Gleeson · 21-08-2006, 08:24

Have confirmed that UK operators under these conditions are permitted to refuse to carry a wheelchair where it is larger than the 'reference wheelchair' or where the wheelchair may raise safety risks owing to its size or weight

Irish Rail operate under the same regulations as the UK

Assuming a 2.7m wide intercity coach it would be difficult if not physically impossible to provide a interior that was accessible to a oversized wheelchair since the accessible toilet would have to be wider making the corridor too narrow

18-08-2006, 13:20	#1
Garrett Cummins New to the board Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 21	CIE won’t let me on train’ -Wheel chair bound passenger claims! Hi I saw the attached in the local newspaper and was appalled, I assume that this effects all wheel chair bound passengers? Do P11 have a view on this? http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/ne...ry.asp?j=23599

18-08-2006, 13:41	#2
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The following train types used on service ex Heuston are fully legally accessible under UK law, there not being any Irish legislation 1) 29000 railcars used Heuston - Kildare, coach clearly marked, ramp carried onboard, restraining strap and emergency contact button 2) CDE/MK4 used Heuston - Cork, all standard and first class coaches have a wheelchair space but not the buffet, ramp carried onboard (hidden in the wall next to the computer screen), restraining strap and emergency contact button fitted From what I can make of the report it is clear that the wheelchair involved is far larger and heavier than that upon which the design and regulations allow for (bear in mind the UK law was the result of massive consultation), it probably won't even fit through the corridor and as a result Iarnrod Eireann are refusing them access on the grounds of safety. Legally they are right to do this and cannot be challenged since they will produce a document to indicate 100% compliance with the accessibility guidelines on all rollling stock ordered since it came into force. The corridor per say on the new trains is wider than the old ones and is physically as wide as possible making it any larger would mean the accessible toilet cannot be fitted, one toilet, one luggage rack and 3 seats has already been sacrificed to make space thus even fully accessible coaches will still not work in this case The older coaches have been adapted to carry a wheelchair in the buffet coach or control car where available but structural alterations are not permitted since they are just not possible Wheelchair physically too big compared to the design laid down in the rules even if 100% compliance was provided they probably wouldn't fit Edit Having read it again it sounds like a complaint was filed through IE or the Rail Safety Commission (I would have done such if I witnessed this) and a warning has been issued to discontinue the practice or the book will be thrown at them. It would of course help to actually have a copy of the email since quotes are always selective Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 18-08-2006 at 14:05.

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18-08-2006, 20:08	#4
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	All the new trains are designed against the UK regulations which are fairly commonly used across Europe as best practice, basic fact is the wheelchair has to physically fit inside the train, all the post 1999 trains all measure up against the required standard and a reasonable effort has been made to retro fit basic accessibilty The rules are known as RVAR, railway vehicle accessibility regulations which was the result of widespread discussion with interest groups. The rail operators and builders went up the wall but where forced to agree. There is a huge quantity of material available. The issue appears that while the outer door is wide enough it is not possible for the wheelchair to turn through the door between the vestibule and the main cabin, the safety issue is that in the event of an accident the wheelchair would block 3 exits of the train, 2 doors and the intercarriage gangway Given the size of these electric wheelchairs there is a strong possibilty they will not fit even on the full accessible intercity trains, chances are they will. We have seen the accessibilty features of the new train tried out and it was handled very professionally by the staff concerned and no negative comments, the new Cork trains have 3 times as many wheelchair spaces as the RVAR rule book demands, all passenger coaches are equiped

18-08-2006, 20:36	#5
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	Interesting thing about the press run of the new trains was that the wheelchair passenger was in a standard wheelchair. Looks like the issue of electric wheelchairs is more complicated. Let me put a call into the Irish wheelchair association and report back.

21-08-2006, 08:24	#6
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Have confirmed that UK operators under these conditions are permitted to refuse to carry a wheelchair where it is larger than the 'reference wheelchair' or where the wheelchair may raise safety risks owing to its size or weight Irish Rail operate under the same regulations as the UK Assuming a 2.7m wide intercity coach it would be difficult if not physically impossible to provide a interior that was accessible to a oversized wheelchair since the accessible toilet would have to be wider making the corridor too narrow