general trend in discourtesy

colmoc · 18-07-2006, 08:41

I used to live in maynooth and get the 7:55 train to pearse. I would generally get on the last carriage as its the closest to the exit in town.

Every morning for about a month a heavilly woman would get on the carriage with the same idea that it was closer to the exit. I would get up and offer her my seat which she would gladly take.

Thing is she started to get embarrassed after a week or so of this and would say no its alright to me in the hope somebody else would offer and the sad thing is nobody did. So again I would get up cos she really needed to take the weight off her back.

Not boasting about my manners but where the hell has most other peoples manners gone to???? Its dissappointing to say the least

James Shields · 18-07-2006, 09:10

I agree it's disappointing that people won't offer a seat, but people shouldn't be shy about asking for a seat. I remember my wife telling me about getting on a bus with her young son, and a fairly elderly lady offered her a seat, and she said, "no thank you," then then turned to the young man across the aisle from her and said, "but I'll take your's, please."

Needless to say the young man obliged.

Another time I was standing on a pretty packed commuter train in London. There was an elderly who seemed to be hanging onto the handrail, but none of the seated passengers seemed to notice (in fairness, the area we were in was a wheelchair/bicycle area with mainly flip-up seats. I said, "would someone please offer this woman a seat."

I have to say, sometimes it can be pretty hard to tell if a person really needs a seat or not, and we seem to have built up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" culture, where it's offensive both to give up your seat, and not to.

Terrontress · 18-07-2006, 09:23

It is not just elderly ladies that I have offered my seat to.

I get the 1719 service out of Lansdowne to Donabate each evening (although they changed the timetable from 1723 to 1719 it still comes at around 1723).

Last December there was a mid-thirties lady with her Christmas Shopping in paper bags. The floor was soaked with dirty footprints and she was struggling to stand under the weight of the bags. I gave her my seat and she sat with the bags on her knees.

Being a 29 year old male I am probably one of the least deserving people on the train for a seat so would give it up to just about anyone.

I do get very annoyed with people sitting on the ground or on portable seats though.

Graham · 18-07-2006, 19:37

I don't - people can be very tired after a long day. Provided they are not blocking an aisle or otherwise getting in the way.

On the wider issue of giving up seats, I have yet to be in a position to do this, but have encountered 'borderline' situations, where a middle-aged 40-50 woman looks a bit weary or whatever. Generally I wouldn't mind speaking out in public, but on a commuter train with the same people every day I would get embarrassed at being rejected by some stubborn PC 'lady' in front of everyone, and so remain put, especially in the context of my rushing about all day, being wrecked and that being the first chance to sit down - I probably need the seat more than she does anyway. But certainly if the case is more clear cut, there is no disputing matters.

One situation I was in on a Commuter however really p*ssed me off, and goes to show just how bitchy women can be. I was sitting at a table, on the aisle seat, with a woman of about 40 sitting opposite me, also on the aisle. There was a man sitting beside me at the window with his laptop. Standing right beside me but slightly behind, was a heavily pregnant woman. Naturally I didn't see her in that position, but the woman directly opposite me clearly could. The man beside me happened to sit up and turn around from his computer and noticed her, and immediately offered his seat, closing up his laptop. I then, now looking like an ignoramus (younger than the man too), had to get up to let her in. It subsequently emerged when I sat down later at the table and the woman opposite began talking to her, that she "was waiting for that gentleman to stand up" and give her the seat!

I was ready to hit her a slap - especially in the context of her glancing at me and pouting "a least there's some real gentlemen left". She was willing to let this woman remain standing, and was also willing to allow a man with laptop pack up and offer his seat instead of her. She also didn't have the courtesy to even politely 'suggest' to me that I offer my seat, on the chance I hadn't seen her.

On the topic of fold-up seats, from a Northern Line Commuter:

Oisin88 · 18-07-2006, 20:16

You can always get up and pretend to be moving to some other part of the Carriage/Luas/Bus and hope that the seat is taken by the elderly/pregnant/tired/otherwise deserving person and not by some other able bodied punter. If you don't say anything you risk not getting somebodies back up, just get the hell out.

Personally, if I give someone the seat I don't like to be anywhere near the area coz you have to put up with the gooing and gaaing of aul wans and their "isn't he great/gentleman" stuff. You don't give them the seat because you are some sort of a nice person. You give them the seat so that they don't fall on top of you or someone else. i.e. avoiding a mess that will need to be cleaned up and will delay your journey.

Note: I'm not actually a nice person

Derek Wheeler · 18-07-2006, 21:29

This entire issue was discussed with IE last week at the shindig in Cork. Louise, our secretary, my wife and sole female member of the committee, has also contributed to the Gerry Ryan show on the very topic of Pregnant women on trains. The concensus arrived at is that signage should be adapted and posters etc should be used to promote the many types of people who should be offered a seat. The wording is being worked on as we speak and will be presented to the accessibility people in IE and promoted in the media. But remember, that day jobs come first, so we can't produce miracles overnight.

billyme · 19-07-2006, 00:13

When my wife is pregnant she just picks out some young lad on the train or bus, points at her belly and asks him politely to stand up. Never fails. People should be less embarrassed and fearful of talking to each other.

I hope she gets trumped by an amputee one day.

Signs would help.

Graham · 19-07-2006, 01:20

Well when IÉ do get round to initiating the campaign Derek, kindly inform them not to paste giant priority stickers onto the windows as they currently do - there's feck all window space as it is on its DMU fleet

A worthy campaign though.

James Shields · 19-07-2006, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oisin88

You can always get up and pretend to be moving to some other part of the Carriage/Luas/Bus and hope that the seat is taken by the elderly/pregnant/tired/otherwise deserving person and not by some other able bodied punter. If you don't say anything you risk not getting somebodies back up, just get the hell out.

Alas, you put too much faith in the human race. I've seen people give up their seat to an elderly/pregnant person, only to have some git in a suit jump in and grab the seat before they can take it. The person said, "hey, that wasn't for you," but only got a shrug in response. Someone else ended up giving their seat to the deserving person rather than making a fuss. Thankfully, I haven't seen this happen in Dublin yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

If you leave it to chance, there's no hope of the intended person getting it.

James Shields · 19-07-2006, 11:21

Quote:

On the topic of fold-up seats, from a Northern Line Commuter:

Well I can understnad the sentiment of the added comment, but standing at peak times in the norm around the world, and if we were to give every peak commuter a seat, we would have a huge fleet of trains sitting idle for most of the day. However, I think the current situation is unacceptable. We should aim for a maximum standing time of around 15-20 mins. On the Northern line having to stand, often pressed against a crowd of people for 45 mins to an hour is common.

More trains are needed, and progress is slowly being made in this direction, but people sitting on folding seats or on the floor of packed trains are clearly making the situation worse. I don't think folding seats are acceptable at any time - people tend to plonk them in the middle of the passageway or blocking the inter-carriage doors, and they impede passage through the train.

I don't mind sitting on the floor when the train is only slightly over the seated capacity, but as soon as the train starts to fill up, they really must stand up - for their own safety as well as consideration of other passengers. I see people sprawled across the floor with a big crowd around them, and the suspension on our commuter trains is not good enough to stop a minor jolt sending the whole crowd a step in any direction, so these people are at severe risk of getting trampled.

Terrontress · 19-07-2006, 11:41

A folding seat seems to take up the space of two standing passengers.

A person on the ground seems to take up the space of three.

On the morning train out of Donabate at 8.15, I am pushed so tightly against other passengers yet these people are on the ground with their seats. If they have a disability they should make it known to people in priority seats.

If someone is on the floor, I go right over to where they are and open my newspaper and hold it over their heads. It means that I can hold it open with leisure in the space over them and not bump it off fellow passengers. It also ensures a pretty uncomfortable journey for the lazy, selfish person on the floor as the light for them is blocked out by my paper and they are forced to stare at my crotch for the duration of the journey.

People also tend to tuck their legs in when I come near so I position my feet so they can't move them out again and are forced into the foetal position.

As I have said, I would gladly give up my seat to anyone at all that I think are more worthy than me but when it comes to having my face in someone's armpit while a 22 year old guy sits on the floor playing his PSP, I am going to try to do something about it.

Dave · 19-07-2006, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostcarpark

Alas, you put too much faith in the human race. I've seen people give up their seat to an elderly/pregnant person, only to have some git in a suit jump in and grab the seat before they can take it. The person said, "hey, that wasn't for you," but only got a shrug in response. Someone else ended up giving their seat to the deserving person rather than making a fuss. Thankfully, I haven't seen this happen in Dublin yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

If you leave it to chance, there's no hope of the intended person getting it.

I don't advocate violence but a good smack in the mouth to said individual in the suit might teach him a lesson

James Shields · 19-07-2006, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

I don't advocate violence but a good smack in the mouth to said individual in the suit might teach him a lesson

I might have obliged if I'd been in range, but I was standing at the other end of the carriage. Probably a good thing, as I could do without a run-in with London Metropoliton Police.

18-07-2006, 20:16	#5
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	Getting embarassed: How to avoid the PC brigade You can always get up and pretend to be moving to some other part of the Carriage/Luas/Bus and hope that the seat is taken by the elderly/pregnant/tired/otherwise deserving person and not by some other able bodied punter. If you don't say anything you risk not getting somebodies back up, just get the hell out. Personally, if I give someone the seat I don't like to be anywhere near the area coz you have to put up with the gooing and gaaing of aul wans and their "isn't he great/gentleman" stuff. You don't give them the seat because you are some sort of a nice person. You give them the seat so that they don't fall on top of you or someone else. i.e. avoiding a mess that will need to be cleaned up and will delay your journey. Note: I'm not actually a nice person

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18-07-2006, 08:41	#1
colmoc Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 140	I used to live in maynooth and get the 7:55 train to pearse. I would generally get on the last carriage as its the closest to the exit in town. Every morning for about a month a heavilly woman would get on the carriage with the same idea that it was closer to the exit. I would get up and offer her my seat which she would gladly take. Thing is she started to get embarrassed after a week or so of this and would say no its alright to me in the hope somebody else would offer and the sad thing is nobody did. So again I would get up cos she really needed to take the weight off her back. Not boasting about my manners but where the hell has most other peoples manners gone to???? Its dissappointing to say the least

18-07-2006, 09:10	#2
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	I agree it's disappointing that people won't offer a seat, but people shouldn't be shy about asking for a seat. I remember my wife telling me about getting on a bus with her young son, and a fairly elderly lady offered her a seat, and she said, "no thank you," then then turned to the young man across the aisle from her and said, "but I'll take your's, please." Needless to say the young man obliged. Another time I was standing on a pretty packed commuter train in London. There was an elderly who seemed to be hanging onto the handrail, but none of the seated passengers seemed to notice (in fairness, the area we were in was a wheelchair/bicycle area with mainly flip-up seats. I said, "would someone please offer this woman a seat." I have to say, sometimes it can be pretty hard to tell if a person really needs a seat or not, and we seem to have built up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" culture, where it's offensive both to give up your seat, and not to.

18-07-2006, 09:23	#3
Terrontress Regular Poster Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 132	It is not just elderly ladies that I have offered my seat to. I get the 1719 service out of Lansdowne to Donabate each evening (although they changed the timetable from 1723 to 1719 it still comes at around 1723). Last December there was a mid-thirties lady with her Christmas Shopping in paper bags. The floor was soaked with dirty footprints and she was struggling to stand under the weight of the bags. I gave her my seat and she sat with the bags on her knees. Being a 29 year old male I am probably one of the least deserving people on the train for a seat so would give it up to just about anyone. I do get very annoyed with people sitting on the ground or on portable seats though.

18-07-2006, 19:37	#4
Graham New to the board Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: crawling behind a DART Posts: 25	I don't - people can be very tired after a long day. Provided they are not blocking an aisle or otherwise getting in the way. On the wider issue of giving up seats, I have yet to be in a position to do this, but have encountered 'borderline' situations, where a middle-aged 40-50 woman looks a bit weary or whatever. Generally I wouldn't mind speaking out in public, but on a commuter train with the same people every day I would get embarrassed at being rejected by some stubborn PC 'lady' in front of everyone, and so remain put, especially in the context of my rushing about all day, being wrecked and that being the first chance to sit down - I probably need the seat more than she does anyway. But certainly if the case is more clear cut, there is no disputing matters. One situation I was in on a Commuter however really p*ssed me off, and goes to show just how bitchy women can be. I was sitting at a table, on the aisle seat, with a woman of about 40 sitting opposite me, also on the aisle. There was a man sitting beside me at the window with his laptop. Standing right beside me but slightly behind, was a heavily pregnant woman. Naturally I didn't see her in that position, but the woman directly opposite me clearly could. The man beside me happened to sit up and turn around from his computer and noticed her, and immediately offered his seat, closing up his laptop. I then, now looking like an ignoramus (younger than the man too), had to get up to let her in. It subsequently emerged when I sat down later at the table and the woman opposite began talking to her, that she "was waiting for that gentleman to stand up" and give her the seat! I was ready to hit her a slap - especially in the context of her glancing at me and pouting "a least there's some real gentlemen left". She was willing to let this woman remain standing, and was also willing to allow a man with laptop pack up and offer his seat instead of her. She also didn't have the courtesy to even politely 'suggest' to me that I offer my seat, on the chance I hadn't seen her. On the topic of fold-up seats, from a Northern Line Commuter:

18-07-2006, 21:29	#6
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	This entire issue was discussed with IE last week at the shindig in Cork. Louise, our secretary, my wife and sole female member of the committee, has also contributed to the Gerry Ryan show on the very topic of Pregnant women on trains. The concensus arrived at is that signage should be adapted and posters etc should be used to promote the many types of people who should be offered a seat. The wording is being worked on as we speak and will be presented to the accessibility people in IE and promoted in the media. But remember, that day jobs come first, so we can't produce miracles overnight.

19-07-2006, 00:13	#7
billyme New to the board Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4	When my wife is pregnant she just picks out some young lad on the train or bus, points at her belly and asks him politely to stand up. Never fails. People should be less embarrassed and fearful of talking to each other. I hope she gets trumped by an amputee one day. Signs would help.

19-07-2006, 01:20	#8
Graham New to the board Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: crawling behind a DART Posts: 25	Well when IÉ do get round to initiating the campaign Derek, kindly inform them not to paste giant priority stickers onto the windows as they currently do - there's feck all window space as it is on its DMU fleet A worthy campaign though.

19-07-2006, 11:41	#11
Terrontress Regular Poster Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 132	A folding seat seems to take up the space of two standing passengers. A person on the ground seems to take up the space of three. On the morning train out of Donabate at 8.15, I am pushed so tightly against other passengers yet these people are on the ground with their seats. If they have a disability they should make it known to people in priority seats. If someone is on the floor, I go right over to where they are and open my newspaper and hold it over their heads. It means that I can hold it open with leisure in the space over them and not bump it off fellow passengers. It also ensures a pretty uncomfortable journey for the lazy, selfish person on the floor as the light for them is blocked out by my paper and they are forced to stare at my crotch for the duration of the journey. People also tend to tuck their legs in when I come near so I position my feet so they can't move them out again and are forced into the foetal position. As I have said, I would gladly give up my seat to anyone at all that I think are more worthy than me but when it comes to having my face in someone's armpit while a 22 year old guy sits on the floor playing his PSP, I am going to try to do something about it.