Timetable consultation for DART/commuter 2016 now online

[ACustomer]

Irish Rail management clearly can't do things which we would normally regard as managing the company: things such as setting a timetable. This is because Irish Rail is, in effect, a union-run company (not the only one in the semi-state sector).

Why not get rid of the (non)management entirely and hand the lot over to SIPTU and the NBRU to run. The subsidy to the company would be decided by Government, and it would be reduced by x% for every strike day. Effectively the unions would be striking against themselves. It might give them some appreciation of the realities of life.

Bonkers? Well no more so than what we have at the moment.

[Mark Gleeson]

Much simpler

IE
Here is your roster, it is within the limits agreed by your union for which your fellow employees voted to accept by secret ballot

Driver
I refuse

IE
Formal warning, if you do not present yourself for work you will be dimissed

[Mickey H]

Is there any point in making a formal complaint about IE refusing online bookings for the week commencing April 11 and if so who to? They are about to loose around 70 Euros revenue as I am not waiting much longer before deciding to go by Bus Eireann for an upcoming trip

[Mark Gleeson]

I would imagine post April 11th will be available on Sligo/Rosslare/Belfast by tomorrow morning

Bookings on all Heuston routes are available out to 60 days as normal

The NTA set no rules as to how far ahead booking is allowed other than it must be offered

[James Howard]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Irish Rail management clearly can't do things which we would normally regard as managing the company: things such as setting a timetable. This is because Irish Rail is, in effect, a union-run company (not the only one in the semi-state sector).

One does wonder what all of the layers of organisations involved are actually for. As far as I can see, the NTA has to decide on a level of service, the Minster for Transport approves a budget, Irish Rail then comes up with a timetable and the unions then decide whether or not they would like to operate it. At no point is there any meaningful discussion with passengers, employers, businesses, property developers or any other stakeholders to try to determine what they need from the service. Where does CIE and the department of transport fit in here?

Have we now reached a point where it is basically impossible to make things better? Irish Rail management seems at this point to be entirely redundant in whole process.

[Jamie2k9]

If what Mark has said can happen and acheive the 10 minute timetable, then I suspect the only reason they are holding back is because of pay claims and implementing it now will likely cost them more financially in the coming years as it will mean unions will push for bigger pay increases.

It can now be sold with extra pay and increased productivity and both can claim a win. While the reality is neither side gain anything.

Current CEO not one to usually shy away from trouble but as the pay claim from October was happening anyway best wait.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

I would imagine post April 11th will be available on Sligo/Rosslare/Belfast by tomorrow morning

Bookings on all Heuston routes are available out to 60 days as normal

The NTA set no rules as to how far ahead booking is allowed other than it must be offered

60 day booking window has been restored on all routes

[Dublin13]

Seems I made the right choice in stopping using the DART.

My other half took my car yesterday and I got the train for the first time in a while and noticed they strengthened one of the Howth sets that already had plenty of space that run within 10 minutes of each other, and left the 17:58 from Clontarf to Malahide alone and was unable to board so called a taxi.

I note that Irish Rail claim they are going to increase capacity due to lack of the new timetable, but that is only going to work if they actually increase the capacity in the places that need it rather than adding the capacity to places that doesn't....

[ACustomer]

What do you bet that the unions will attempt to veto extra capacity on some peak hour DARTs?

That's what comes when you have no effective government.

[Dublin13]

Whilst they clearly are pushing their luck and trying to take advantage of the situation for their own needs with the government situation, I don't think that is the only factor.

Unions are hoping for a FF minority government from what I have heard, on the basis that during the last FF government tenure they could pretty much name their price.

[Jamie2k9]

What do you bet that the unions will attempt to veto extra capacity on some peak hour DARTs?

That's what comes when you have no effective government.

While it won't happen and if it did IE are in a very powerful position on it to address it.

TBH having a Government would be a benefit to the unions.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

Confirmed not going ahead but some DART services will see increased capacity at peak times.

which begs the question, why not already? Suggest that these 10 min train sets, when they happen, could be small.

[Dublin13]

I heard only the other day that with DB, and IR having talks about issues, BE might join in soon and if this dispute is not settled there could be a prospect of all of them all threatening to striking on the same day to heap pressure on a government in it's first days.

The rationale being that should a FF led government get in power they will almost certainly not allow that to happen and will give in pretty easy, as happened in the past.

[Jamie2k9]

which begs the question, why not already? Suggest that these 10 min train sets, when they happen, could be small.

I did say on here that it would likely result in all 4 coach operations with likely a mix of 2 and 4 late night.

I heard only the other day that with DB, and IR having talks about issues, BE might join in soon and if this dispute is not settled there could be a prospect of all of them all threatening to striking on the same day to heap pressure on a government in it's first days.

The rationale being that should a FF led government get in power they will almost certainly not allow that to happen and will give in pretty easy, as happened in the past.

FF will have to wait another 5 years even if we had another election tomorrow I suspect.

There will not be an all out strike, it would be difficult for DB and BE to strike together never mind get IE involved. There is no Government tap anymore as supplementary budgets are gone.

There is scope in DB for moderate pay rise, BE not in as good position but some room and IE cannot afford it however they will have to.

[berneyarms]

Can I ask what is the formal position of RUI with regard to the 10 minute DART timetable?

[Mark Gleeson]

The position with respect to the draft timetable issued was

Fails To Address Social Needs
No service on any route reaches Dublin before 0850 on a Sunday (and by extension a bank holiday). There should be at least 1 arrival from Maynooth, Greystones, Drogheda and Howth before 0850 on a Sunday No service after 2330 despite Luas operating for 10 years up to 0030 6 days a week

Poor Design
Loss of clockface timetabling on several routes is disappointing Saturday timetable is completely different to Monday to Friday, more confusion Dublin Belfast journey times now no better than those in 1947, first year of the Dublin Belfast Enterprise service DART journey times are ridiculously padded and are 10 minutes longer than needed. This is an attempt to hide lazy and slow operating practices. This will result in significant extra staff and operating costs by requiring an extra train set in service and drivers to drive.

Dublin Belfast
Improvements on Sunday long overdue
Pre 9am arrival in Dublin positive change, but journey time unacceptable Addition of Lisburn adds time to an already slow schedule, we see no justification for this Still no pre 9am arrival in Belfast from Dublin, this is unacceptable Connections between Commuter and Enterprise services at Drogheda/Dundalk are not timed to provide reasonable connections, ideally a northbound commuter train should arrive Drogheda 5-10 minutes before a Belfast bound train and depart to Dublin 5-10 minutes after the arrival of a train from Belfast No connection into 0710 Dublin Belfast at Drogheda Timetable PDF will need to show clearly that the 0910 Dublin Belfast overtakes the 0540 Rosslare Dundalk to avoid confusion

Dublin Rosslare
The 05:40 now arrives too late into Dublin to be of real use for commuters as a result of the ridiculously extended DART timetables. All Connolly Rosslare departures on Sunday should be scheduled to depart three minutes later from Connolly, trains would still arrive Bray in advance of the proposed time Evening departure to Dublin should depart Rosslare no earlier than 1845 to ensure connection with ferry.

Dublin Sligo
The alterations to the schedule and particularly the loss of the 1600 and retiming of 1305 are likely to result in serious overcrowding issues The loss of the simple clockface timetable is disappointing


Maynooth/M3 line
Later Sunday evening service is required.


Northern Line
A review of afternoon weekday services is required to ensure these meet the needs of the significant volume of school children who travel home. 30 minute gap between 1653 and 1723 northbound from Pearse is a major concern, the long standing 1713 was the first 8 coach commuter train introduced back in 1999
The 1712 Connolly Balbriggan service should now start from Pearse (or indeed from Dun Laoghaire as there won't be space to hold the train in Pearse)
23:23 Pearse Drogheda should run to Dundalk saving passengers the awkward change at Drogheda also saving passengers 9 minutes


DART
While the move to a 10 minute interval service is welcomed (having being promised as far back as 1983) the implementation is poor and shows little effort to operate the service efficiently which in turn has significant negative impacts on other routes.
DART end to end journey time is now 75 minutes. The original 1984 timetable was 60 minutes, with the addition of 2 stations we can see a justification for a time of 66 minutes off peak/70 minutes on peak.

Reducing the journey time by 5 minutes would
1. Allow each train set to make one extra trip per day, fewer trains and drivers required
2. Shorter journeys are more attractive to customers and will increase demand
3. Commuter and intercity services would benefit from reduced journey times
4. As fewer train sets needed, you can have longer trains, ability to make 3 6 coach trains 8 coaches in length

10 minute frequency in the very early morning and after 10pm is excessive and wasteful of limited funding. An early morning/late night (pre 7am, post 10pm) frequency of 15 minutes is sufficient and still represents an improvement on current. The savings from this should be used to provide 23:45, 00:00 departures north/south from City Mon-Thursday and 2345 0000 0015 0030 service on a Fri/Sat. Note last Luas has always been 0030

A rework is required with respect to Rosslare/Greystones services. The current busiest train in the country for several years in a row has been the 0800 Greystones Malahide will now leave at 0804 and take 6 minutes longer to reach the City Centre thus making the train useless for those with a 9am start for work. By applying the journey time reductions we identified above this train would be restored to 0800 and arrive as current in Dublin. This would return Greystones services to the current xx00 and xx30 departure times. This in turn would improve the arrival time of the 0540 Rosslare Dundalk. This would require a rethink of the entire timetable to factor in the journey time reductions on Northern Line and Belfast services.

[berneyarms]

Thanks.

I suspect later departures than 23:30 would require contract changes with the NTA. It's no different to DB and BE PSO services either.

[Mark Gleeson]

Unlike BE/DB Irish Rail does not need a licence for a route and can run whenever they like

[Inniskeen]

Mark's summary captures a lot of the issues that seem to be evident to just about everybody but Irish Rail and the NTA.

Contrary to the RUI position, I am of the opinion that a 10 minute interval all day DART service is impractical on existing infrastructure and will basically be an embarrassment for the railway and a major inconvenience for all users including, ironically, DART users.

It is probably time to submit this issue for an independent expert review which would take into account service demand, revenue, cost, track layouts, signalling, rolling stock efficiency and staff rostering.

[James Howard]

Am I correct in assuming that RUI has no official standing and that submitting a list like this has as much effect as our own personal submissions. Mark's comments are excellent and I personally submitted a subset of these that were almost exactly the same.

I find it utterly absurd that there is no official response from Irish Rail regarding passenger concerns with timetables. Some of us spend far more time on trains than any senior Irish Rail manager and we'll often see things going awry in the same place at the same time every day for years. Yet nobody in Irish Rail pays any attention whatsoever to customers.

I get the distinct impression that every passenger submission on timetables goes straight into the round filing cabinet under somebody's desk. It would be a pity of an RUI submission was dealt with in the same manner as there really seems to be nobody looking after passenger interests