Timetable consultation for DART/commuter 2016 now online

[James Howard]

It would appear quite obvious that an extra 2 cars on the 17:58 would go a long way towards providing a vastly improved service towards Malahide.

But the consequences of the timetable change would effectively make the train impractical for the commute I've been doing for 12 years. In that time, my evening train option has gone from a comfortable train at exactly the right time that does the journey in an hour and 20 minutes to a choice of an uncomfortable train at exactly the right time or a two comfortable trains an hour either side of the right time, all of which take 15 to 20 minutes longer than what was achievable before Irish Rail invested tens of millions in new trains, new signalling, level crossing automation and platform lengthening. With the new timetable the 0545 from Sligo will take longer to get from Longford to Connolly than the old 0700ish service from Longford despite having 7 fewer stops.

We should have expected massive improvements in reliability due to the improvements in traction from railcars and the extra allowed journey time yet I don't really see any difference at all. This winter has been utterly awful - this morning's train was 15 minutes late yet there was no explanation or apology. This wasn't the signalling issue of the day as the train was this late by the time it got to Edgeworthstown.

The same pattern seems to have been repeated for the DART - massive investment in trains, platforms and signalling and the result of each investment seems to be a new timetable that is slower and less reliable than the previous timetable. Does the DART run any closer to timetable than it did 25 years ago when it could complete the journey in 10 minutes less time? It certainly is no more reliable than when I started commuting.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

It would appear quite obvious that an extra 2 cars on the 17:58 would go a long way towards providing a vastly improved service towards Malahide.

But the consequences of the timetable change would effectively make the train impractical for the commute I've been doing for 12 years. In that time, my evening train option has gone from a comfortable train at exactly the right time that does the journey in an hour and 20 minutes to a choice of an uncomfortable train at exactly the right time or a two comfortable trains an hour either side of the right time, all of which take 15 to 20 minutes longer than what was achievable before Irish Rail invested tens of millions in new trains, new signalling, level crossing automation and platform lengthening. With the new timetable the 0545 from Sligo will take longer to get from Longford to Connolly than the old 0700ish service from Longford despite having 7 fewer stops.

We should have expected massive improvements in reliability due to the improvements in traction from railcars and the extra allowed journey time yet I don't really see any difference at all. This winter has been utterly awful - this morning's train was 15 minutes late yet there was no explanation or apology. This wasn't the signalling issue of the day as the train was this late by the time it got to Edgeworthstown.

The same pattern seems to have been repeated for the DART - massive investment in trains, platforms and signalling and the result of each investment seems to be a new timetable that is slower and less reliable than the previous timetable. Does the DART run any closer to timetable than it did 25 years ago when it could complete the journey in 10 minutes less time? It certainly is no more reliable than when I started commuting.

No matter how much you invest in signalling, if frequency increases significantly on a single track line with passing loops, you are inevitably going to have increased likelihood of delays due to the knock-on effects of any delay that happens.

That's why there is the 10 minute wait at Edgeworthstown and Boyle in either direction - it's an attempt to keep a level of resilience in the timetable.

The proposed changes on the Sligo line really do not have anything to do with the increased DART service levels, but I suspect have more to do with changes in permanent speed restrictions on the route for whatever reason.

However the company seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with the scheduling of the lunchtime train which could be scheduled 40 minutes earlier and significantly faster.

Similarly, you cannot compare the DART 25 years ago with today - there are way more trains passing through the central section of the line between Connolly and Pearse, and that will necessarily mean longer journey times overall as they try to fit all of the trains through that space.

You've only got to look at commuter routes into and out of London - exactly the same thing has happened. Journey times have increased as the number of trains operated has also increased.

[James Howard]

The 10 minutes extra running time on Sligo is nothing to with waiting for crossing. They generally make the up train wait at Edgeworthstown anyway, but even if down train was waiting at Edgeworthstown it wouldn't affect people going there. You're right, a lot of the drop in reliability for Sligo is due to the fact that every train now has to cross with at least 2 others - if not more. Until a couple of years ago, there was one train that had to cross with 5 others and things have got a bit better since they got rid of that.

What amazes me is that stuff like this can go into timetables and remain there for years - another example is the 1905 to Sligo which is 10 minutes late at Mullingar every single time I take it and has been for the last 7 years or however long it's been running. The proposed timetable has a proposed 1700 departure from Docklands which any idiot can see will hold up the 1705 Connolly express departure. How can a supposed planning expert come up with this kind of stuff?

The sad thing about all of this is that a supposed service improvement which will cost more money to operate has ended up pissing everyone off, makes nothing significantly better for anyone that couldn't be sorted another way and makes things significantly worse for the vast majority of railway users.

Anyway, I can't see this timetable change happening given that it will only run for about 6 months before the PPT is done. There should also be further modifications when BXD opens to take advantage of improved connectivity at Broombridge, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't happen.

[Jamie2k9]

No matter how much you invest in signalling, if frequency increases significantly on a single track line with passing loops, you are inevitably going to have increased likelihood of delays due to the knock-on effects of any delay that happens.

Yes however it's about how such delays are managed. I would be in favor of a system to not delay everything but one service. Lets say there is 10 minutes between two crossing points. If X service is running more than 10 minutes late then it should be held at it's location and Y service allowed to operate on time. A massive amount of service disruption is because IE decided to delay everything which could last hours before schedules recover instead of delayed one service by an extra 10 minutes. It would not work all the time but you would see a significant improvement in service.

The proposed changes on the Sligo line really do not have anything to do with the increased DART service levels, but I suspect have more to do with changes in permanent speed restrictions on the route for whatever reason.

Replacing the 16.00 with an 09.30 out of Dublin is 100% down to increasing fleet utilization or removing a unit at Connolly. The rest of the changes are more less accommodating as many as possible up to normal schedules at 17.05.

They generally make the up train wait at Edgeworthstown anyway, but even if down train was waiting at Edgeworthstown it wouldn't affect people going there. You're right, a lot of the drop in reliability for Sligo is due to the fact that every train now has to cross with at least 2 others - if not more. Until a couple of years ago, there was one train that had to cross with 5 others and things have got a bit better since they got rid of that.

Crossing with 2 trains is perfectly doable provided schedulers are done right. More than 2 then there will be some issues when tings go wrong however with good scheduled those can be reduced. Anymore than 3 then singe line does not function more less at all and if it does it's not time friendly. Galway/Westport prefect example.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

The 10 minutes extra running time on Sligo is nothing to with waiting for crossing. They generally make the up train wait at Edgeworthstown anyway, but even if down train was waiting at Edgeworthstown it wouldn't affect people going there. You're right, a lot of the drop in reliability for Sligo is due to the fact that every train now has to cross with at least 2 others - if not more. Until a couple of years ago, there was one train that had to cross with 5 others and things have got a bit better since they got rid of that.

What amazes me is that stuff like this can go into timetables and remain there for years - another example is the 1905 to Sligo which is 10 minutes late at Mullingar every single time I take it and has been for the last 7 years or however long it's been running. The proposed timetable has a proposed 1700 departure from Docklands which any idiot can see will hold up the 1705 Connolly express departure. How can a supposed planning expert come up with this kind of stuff?

The sad thing about all of this is that a supposed service improvement which will cost more money to operate has ended up pissing everyone off, makes nothing significantly better for anyone that couldn't be sorted another way and makes things significantly worse for the vast majority of railway users.

Anyway, I can't see this timetable change happening given that it will only run for about 6 months before the PPT is done. There should also be further modifications when BXD opens to take advantage of improved connectivity at Broombridge, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't happen.

Within the existing timetable, most trains cross with three trains en route:
the first at Maynooth, the second at Edgeworthstown and the third at Boyle.

That imposes restrictions in terms of how the railway can operate and on overall journey times. The timetable has some resilience built into it - trains in the "down" direction (i.e. towards Sligo) have extra dwell time built into the schedule at Edgeworthstown and trains in the "up" direction (i.e. towards Dublin) have extra dwell time built into the schedule at Boyle.

You have to have that on single track routes in order to have some resilience in the event of a train being delayed somewhere, otherwise everything would collapse. This is standard practice in scheduling. It's not there for a whim - it's there to try and keep the service running as reliably as possible. It's certainly not a ridiculous idea by any means. One look at similar single track lines anywhere will show you that the same principle is applied.

The number of trains was reduced by one in either direction simply as a cost cutting measure - nothing more than that, but it has the effect of reducing the possibility of delays to the 18:00 from Sligo and the trains that it crosses.

I can't comment on why the 19:05 is delayed, but something is obviously delaying the 18:00 further along the line and causing the 19:05 to wait longer at Killucan than it is supposed to.

I don't think that the 17:00 ex-Docklands would impact on the 17:05 that much to be honest - it's a shorter route to Glasnevin Junction from Docklands than from Connolly, so it should be about 10 minutes ahead of it by there, which allowing for 30 second station stops, should still have it 5 minutes ahead of the 17:05 at Clonsilla. The 17:05 also has to cross the 15:00 at Maynooth, so accelerating the 17:05 any more isn't going to solve anything.

With infrastructure limitations such as mixing Intercity and Commuter services with no passing facilities, and running a reasonably frequent service on a single track, scheduling can be a bloody difficult job to do - far more difficult than most people even remotely consider.

And to clarify, the comment that I made about the Sligo line changes was in relation to the slightly longer journey times for most trains - and that it is, from what I can glean, looking in detail at the proposed timetables, in all likelihood down to changes in the permanent speed restrictions for whatever reason, which has meant that maintaining the clock face timetable becomes impossible.

Now the question I would have is what's causing the changes in the PSRs? Is it to do with changes in sighting for signals or what?

Also, if you then sit down and try to path in the extra Friday train around 16:00 it's nigh on impossible to do it any faster with the new running times - having examined it I don't see how it can be accelerated.

The lunchtime "down" service in the proposed timetable could however be accelerated somewhat by leaving 40 minutes earlier - why it's scheduled as it is, is beyond me.