Recomend a good solicitor

[Colm Moore]

You don't mention which station.

Strictly speaking, you should have a ticket. However, in the circumstances, it would appear that it was impossible and the sign on the ticket gate suggested you could travel without one.

Did you happen to take any pictures?

Ask for the CCTV of the day to be retained as well as the logs for the ticket vending machine and the ticket barriers.

Originally Posted by scooby

Well in my honest opinion it was absolutly unjust
I went to a station 2 weeks ago for my journey to work when i got there it was unmanned security shutters down

There is the argument that the station was unattended and there is no legal obligation to use the ticket machines. However, that argument is weak and I would be loathe to recommend it.

Originally Posted by scooby

I tried to get a ticket from the vending machine but it just kept spitting the money back out nothing came up on the screen it just would not take the note

Had you selected a journey at this point? It won't take your money if you haven't selected a journey.

Are you saying you tried coins and notes (note that €50 notes will never be accepted for short journeys)?

I went back inside to see if there was anyone about the barriers were open and the machine display said no ticket required

This is rather damning for them.

I got on the dart thinking i could pay at pearse like i have done before
When i got off at pearse i immediatly went to the guy at the barrier and explained that the booking office in the station was closed and that the machine rejected my money which i showed him.

What do you mean "which i showed him"?

I asked for the gardai to be called as i was not going to give him my name i would only give it to the gardai as i has done nothing wrong ( in my opinion)

Did he actually ask for your name? Did he say it was an offence to not give your name?

Even after all this i still went downstairs and bought the ticket as i needed
it for work i get reimbursed for all traved expenses but i have to give in the ticket as a recipt

Try to bring that ticket with you if it ends up in court. Get a photocopy now and keep it.

The real sting in the tail came also on 24th i received a letter rejicting my appeal dated the 22nd thats 2 days before i sent the appeal

Was this a response to your letter to customer service?

So now im in the unhappy position of looking for a solicitor to defend me should this go to court

There are likely to be some solicitors there on the day. However, it would be useful to talk to the before the day. Talk to the usual district court criminal defence solicitors. It would be cheapest to find one who would be there anyway on the day dealing with other cases.

Realise that going to court risks a criminal conviction.

Buy a Leap Card. You can use the on-line log to claim your expenses from work, it they'll accept it.

[Traincustomer]

(Not advice but a relevant point to prevent needless problems through no fault of passengers)

There is surely an internal system for logging such instances e.g. TVM faults/ a member of staff rings in sick and the ticket office isn't opened at the usual time (am sure there's a history/log of each TVM and any faults kept).

However problems with ticket vending machines and ticket offices ought to be publically displayed on the website (possibly as part of the NTA contractual requirement). Have never seen any such info ever posted on the Irish Rail website - have seen info on lifts out of action and the like.

A glance at a website in Britain shows the sort of thing:

http://www.journeycheck.com/northernrail
Hartlepool Facilities: Ticket Vending Machine problem
At Hartlepool station.
The ticket vending machines are out of order.
Message Received :01/02/2013 08:29

[karlr42]

The "no ticket required" thing is not a sign, it's a message displayed on the little screen on the barrier. A member of staff can set it to that mode(which also keeps the gates open) while a station is unstaffed, or you sometimes see the gates open and "Touch On/Off" displayed. I wouldn't take it as endorsement of not having a ticket, it's just a programmed message with unfortunate wording.

What probably happened was that the machine had no change was not accepting cash payment, I've seen that happen before. You could still have paid with a credit/debit card though.

[Eddie]

Your story, assuming we know all the facts, is shocking, Scooby.

You tried to pay as soon as you could, and were fined when you tried.

I would have thought this was reasonable.

In the UK, posters would be on display in most stations saying that you must buy a ticket before travelling, or where this is not possible, at the first available opportunity, ie a member of staff on board a train, or at your destination etc.

I've looked at the conditions of travel on the Irish rail website, available here:

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ConditionsOfTravel1.pdf

It was last updated in June 2004.

The only thing I can find says:

Conditions of Carriage of Passengers:
Conditions of Issue of Passenger Tickets
4.4 Where any person travels without a valid ticket, he or she will be required to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

No reference whatsoever about their being available facilities to buy a ticket before you travel. Just, you must have one.

So the message is, if you can't buy one, don't travel, because if you do, Irish Rail can prosecute you.

Given this, I'm not sure a solicitor can do much. And I'm sure their fee would quickly clock over the level of the fine.

So I think, on balance, much as I think you have done what is fair and reasonable, and what I would have done in the same circumstances because my knowledge would have been based on experience in the UK (before I'd read the conditions of travel above) I'd pay the fine.

And never, ever travel Irish Rail again without a ticket. Clearly, if you have no other available forms of transport available to you, this is a problem.

In my opinion, it's a pretty bad indictment of Irish Rail though, to fine a passenger that has tried to pay at the first available opportunity. And not to have updated its Conditions of Travel in nearly 9 years.

I hope someone else will be able to say that I'm wrong and you do have a case.

[scooby]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

You don't mention which station.

What do you mean "which i showed him"?

Did he actually ask for your name? Did he say it was an offence to not give your name


Buy a Leap Card. You can use the on-line log to claim your expenses from work, it they'll accept it.

It was Glenageary station

No he did not say it was an offence not to give your name

I cant use a leap card our accounts dept will only accept the actual ticket as a receipt

I did keep the ticket i bought after the incident

What i did not say in my earlier epic post was that the issue was indeed that it was a €50 note i did not know at that time it would not accept this as i never use the vending machines i usually pay at the hatch

I genuinely did not see any notice like the one in other stations that was pointed out to me by a friend after this happened

I went and had another look and there was a sticker up on the top of the machine not beside the display like others this notice was partially obscured by another sticker and nothing came up on the display of the machine i tried several times to put it through

I had no other cash or cards that i could use

My problem with this whole mess is that i made genuine efforts to buy a ticket which were refused

At no time did i try to evade paying
I could have just walked out behind someone else but i did not I actually required a ticket and i tried to buy one

I needed a ticket to get to and from work and i need the actual physical ticket in order to be reimbursed

I just will not accept that someone can call me a criminal & demand money from me and that i should just accept it and reward them for this
shut up and pay up attitude

The guy in the little office in pearse was not even remotely interested in listening to my side of the story he was writing the ticket before i had finished speaking he did not try to contact glenageary to see if there was anyone there

The guard that arrived said that was her third time there that morning for the same thing

If i was the third person that felt strongly enough to ask for the gardai to be called then how many people just accepted irish rails accusations and walked away

the law society journal done an article on this called ticket to ride
http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&tbo=d&sc...w=1280&bih=696

And clearly ( again in my opinion) indicates that it is not an offence to board a train without a ticket if the station is unmanned or you are unable to use the vending machine as long as you try to buy one as soon as you can on reaching your destination it is only an offence if you intend not to pay

Again i apologise for the long post

[plant43]

Originally Posted by scooby

What i did not say in my earlier epic post was that the issue was indeed that it was a €50 note i did not know at that time it would not accept this as i never use the vending machines i usually pay at the hatch

I genuinely did not see any notice like the one in other stations that was pointed out to me by a friend after this happened

In addition to the notice on the machine, I believe that it is also indicated on the payment screen which notes/coins are accepted. It's really not Irish Rail's fault that you failed to notice that.

[Mark Gleeson]

Now that we have some facts we can move on

1. Purchase of a ticket at Glenageary

There is no evidence to support a claim the ticket machine was in any way defective. It refused a 50 euro note, per design and per long standing rules on change. The ticket machine does have a clear notice indicating 50 euro notes valid only if fare greater than 31 euro, so for reference attached photos of the ticket machine in Glenageary




So nothing wrong here and we can be sure Irish Rail can produce evidence of numerous ticket sales from the ticket machine in question before and after the OP's visit. Irish Rail is only obliged to accept exact payment, change is entirely optional


2. Pearse

As the ticket machine in Glenageary was in working order it was not flagged with staff, there is an internal notification process in Irish Rail will provides a list of all ticket machines, turnstiles and smartcard readers that are not in full working order.

So the member of staff was correct and legally empowered to begin the fixed penalty notice procedure

Refusal to give your name and address is an offence per Section 135(2)c of the Rail Safety Act 2005 and separately Section 35 of SI 109/1984 Coras Iompair Éireann Bye-Laws (Confirmation) Order.

Failure to cooperate with the official and the calling of the Gardai is a huge issue if this goes to court as any judge will take this as a case of wasting Garda time

Being brutally frank about the situation, we can split hairs about many elements of this, but this is the real world and not Hollywood courtroom

Ask the OP, did you have a ticket when boarding the train, yes/no

Ask the IE official, was there a working ticket machine or open booking office at the station the OP started from, yes/no

Its pretty open and shut at this point. That said you have a good chance of winning if you have evidence to support

1. There was no notice concerning the 50 euro note restriction (Photos I have show the notice is there)
2. Photo of the turnstile saying no ticket required (Software change in early Jan 2013 got rid of this notice, we asked for the change 1+ year ago)
3. Not being informed of the legal obligations to give name etc (dubious at best, its a citizens responsibility to know the rules, ignorance is no defence)

[Thomas Ralph]

Unfortunately I agree with Mark on most of this. I say unfortunately because the rules aren't especially fair on people in this scenario, if you genuinely had only a €50 note. Thing is, most people carry a credit or debit card as well, and machines will accept these for any transaction.

However, I think the only offence you have committed which is eligible for a fixed penalty notice is of failing to give your name and address. The offence of avoiding a fare (s 132 (3) (a) Railway Safety Act 2005, if memory serves) requires intent to avoid payment, which I doubt can be proven. Also, the statutory instrument does not allow them to issue a €50 fine for this. I don't think you are likely to get off on the technicalities, but it would be an interesting argument.

[Inniskeen]

Just a few comments.
While I sympathise with your situation and believe you have been poorly treated, you need to ask yourself would you you have travelled abroad in similar circumstances - say in London, New York, Vienna, Berlin ? If the answer is no then maybe you shouldn't have travelled in Dublin either.

Looking at the Irish Rail performance, the ticket & ticket checking systems are a mess due to inconsistency of application and unreliability of equipment.

As regards the €50 euro restriction, this may well be an inconvenience but provided it is clearly indicated at the station then unfortunately it is the passenger who must organise themselves accordingly.

As for the booking office being unstaffed, this is comparatively routine. The Irish Rail pactice of leaving barriers and gates open in such circumstances is questionable as it sends the message that they are not particularly pushed whether passengerrs have a ticket or not. Many, many passengers travel free as they get to know the system.

The new barriers happily facilitate tailgating, something I have been forced to do on numerous occasions due to the entry/exit equipment not acknowledging a perfectly valid annual ticket.

I happened to be in Dalkey yesterday (I think the ticket office was open) While waiting for a Dublin bound DART I observed several youths simply pulling the turnstiles slightly forward and then squeezing through the mid-position without any difficulty. The group involved had no difficulty exiting at Sydney Parade as the barriers were were open and possibly displaying the "No ticket required message".

While I am loathe to advise given that I don't have the legal knowledge to properly assess your case, morally you seem to have a decent case, but the onus may still be yours to have a valid ticket before boarding a train, irrespective of circumstances.

Good Luck !

[scooby]

Many thanks for yor replies
attached is the photo of vending machine in question having trouble resizing it to fit

[Mark Gleeson]

If you can prove that photo was taken on the day of the incident or in the days following you are in the clear as its does NOT indicate 50 euro note restrictions and as Thomas has said they have to prove intent to defraud which is not easy.

However this is what the machine looks like Sunday Feb 3 and the notice is clearly shown

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/attach...8&d=1359904690

So you got to prove the date and time of the photo, if you have to original file it should be timestamped and stored along with the camera type internally.

If the photo was taken this morning it proves nothing