Ticket confiscated / fined

[trish71]

yesterday my son - a leaving cert student - was travelling to Tralee and got a fixed penalty fine and his return ticket confiscated - due to not having proper student ID. He showed his bag of books - as he was studying on train - but no joy - any advice re appeals. It was an online ticket booked in his name and I can get him a travel card in retrospect I guess - or a letter from school as he's a scholar. Any thoughts on this or how to get him back to Dublin without paying again?

[Mark Gleeson]

It is a requirement to hold a student travelcard to avail of student fare on Irish Rail, anyone over 16 in full time second or third level education can get a student travelcard. Similar rules/schemes apply in Northern Ireland, UK, Germany, France etc. School/College ID is not accepted

When booked online the following message appears in a box which cannot be hidden/avoided unless you click to accept that you understand

The following information is relevant to the ticket(s) you have selected.

* You have chosen a Student ticket. To travel on this ticket you must have either a valid Iarnród Éireann Student TravelCard or a valid Translink Student Discount Card in your name. No other student ID or travel cards are valid on Iarnród Éireann services. For details about accepted travel cards go to www.studenttravelcard.ie or www.translink.co.uk/Students/Discount-Card/.

Failure to produce a valid ticket, appropriate ID or Surcharge where necessary will result in the passenger being issued a fixed penalty of €100 together with the relevant unpaid fare.

When purchased at a ticket machine or booking office the card number is printed on the ticket. Given these measures Irish Rail has given reasonable notice of the requirement to a student travelcard so the claim of "I didn't know" cannot be sustained.

I'm afraid there is no possible appeal for the case you describe. The student travelcard must be present with the ticket. Later production of the ID card is unlikely to result in the fine being struck out as it will be clear that it was issued after the date of the incident. Cheapest way back is to pay full fare as an adult and the choose a noff peak train which might be less than the normal 37 euro single fare

[trish71]

Yes, I understood on purchase that he did not have correct ID but hoped that Inspector could be lenient in this regard - he has not travelled on train before and no time to process card. Does anyone know of successful appeal in this regard - he was not trying to beat the system as such, he is actually a student and can prove it.

[Mark Gleeson]

But does not hold a valid student travelcard.

Its zero tolerance, failure to play by the quite reasonable rules will result in a fine and the ticket being confiscated (its remains property of Irish Rail/CIE at all times anyway).

The rules were clearly displayed and you made a decision to chance it, Irish Rail then applied the rules exactly as outlined in those rules. Irish Rail's requirement for a specific student travelcard is in line with numerous other railways administrations.

Based on the rules and past history there is zero chance the fine will be struck out as this represents a clear "intent to defraud" of traveling on a cheaper ticket than which is valid which allows Irish Rail the legal power to issue a 100 euro fixed notice fine and/or 1000 euro for a conviction in court

[Thomas Ralph]

I agree with Mark here I'm afraid. There is a requirement to produce a Student TravelCard with a student discounted ticket, and this was pointed out on purchase of the ticket. I would recommend paying the charge of €168.50 as failure to do so is liable to result in your son being prosecuted and getting a criminal record.

He will need to purchase a new ticket to get back to Dublin and as Mark mentions this can be arranged online for no more than €37.

[trish71]

Is there anyone out there who thinks theres any hope of an appeal if I pay the fine and make a case in writing?

[Thomas Ralph]

There's a non-zero chance, but I would say it's quite low. They have been taking a dim view of students travelling without a student travelcard for quite some time.

[Colm Moore]

I think you'll find it difficult to get anywhere regarding the facts of the matter. However, you might get somewhere with mitigation.

Apply for a Student Travelcard as soon as possible and keep the ticket he uses for the return leg. Write a letter, enclosing copies of them, stating it wasn't his fault* (Do I have this correct, that you bought the ticket for him?) and see if they will the agree to just charging the fine or the full fare, not both. Follow up two days later with a phone call. Be conciliatory (but not grovelling) and ask if some consideration can be made. Be willing to pay whatever is agreed.

http://www.studenttravelcard.ie/index.aspx


* As there are bye-laws in place and as he is the one who travelled without a proper ticket, any court appearance would be in his name.

[Destructix]

Just reading through www.studenttravelcard.ie Noticed this.

Student Travelcard holders can SAVE 48% on the Dublin/Thurles train. Adult fare is €52, Student Travelcard holders fare €27.

Sure pays to be a student.

[Eddie]

Just for interest, I had a look at the terms and conditions for the Young Person's / student card in the UK, which says:

"6.You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket."

So it would seem that they encourage you to have the right ticket by telling you that if you don't then you'll have to pay the full fare which seems reasonable. Of course, you could decide to get off at the next station to reduce the amount paid. It seems unreasonable to me that the return ticket was confiscated because your son might have had the student card at his destination, which he could use on the way back. At the very least I think they should reduce the amount of the fine by the value of the confiscated return leg - which you wouldn't have paid for if it was just a single ticket. Fining a student €100 seems very heavy-handed, but from their point of view, they are trying to encourage compliance and gain revenue from the purchase of the student cards. Your son could plead innocence given that you bought the ticket, but then, as Mark says, you were warned.

Colm's advice seems pretty fair.

[Thomas Ralph]

Under the legislation they can't issue fines of anything other than €100 (and recover the full fare for the journey).

[trish71]

Having read all the advice - thanks guys - I will pay fine and try in writing at least to recover return fare , and will also make sure to get him a travel card asap. It was completely my fault , not his, ticket booked online and paid with my credit card. Don't want him to be penalised further! Bad enough - for a teenager - to have to have been singled out on train - that's punishment enough!
Trish

[Ballymore]

Unfortunately he's not helped by some students (non students do it too no doubt) who travel on trains with no ticket at all in the hope that they dont have to purchase one.

[comcor]

I suppose what's needed is some sort of equivalent of a caution where the offfender's name is put on a list the first time they infringe rather than fining them.

That would only apply to people travelling with the wrong type of ticket rather than no ticket at all. It should also still be required to pay the difference.

The problem is that a system like that becomes a licence for visiting tourists to try to get away with it as they are unlikely to ever be done again.

[Destructix]

Off topic slightly but are they going to introduce automatic ticket checking barriers in Colbert and Kent stations in the near future?

[Jamie2k9]

I suppose what's needed is some sort of equivalent of a caution where the offfender's name is put on a list the first time they infringe rather than fining them.

That would only apply to people travelling with the wrong type of ticket rather than no ticket at all. It should also still be required to pay the difference.

The problem is that a system like that becomes a licence for visiting tourists to try to get away with it as they are unlikely to ever be done again.

Thats like saying its alright for me to travel with a childs ticket and pay the difference of an adult one if I was caught.

There is no excuse, it was clearly stated you needed a student card to have this fare, Its is harsh but its needed and no exceptions should be made. If you have the wrong ticket you should be fined.

The person was hard done by but he didn't read what was required to have this fare.

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by Destructix

Off topic slightly but are they going to introduce automatic ticket checking barriers in Colbert and Kent stations in the near future?

I think the way the stations are constructed rules out barriers at Kent Station (except possibly platforms 1 and 2). Colbert Station could have automatic barriers added on platforms 1 and 2, but the huge exit to the bus yard by 3 and 4 would be hard to police.