Submission to the NTA about Waterford-Rosslare?

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Munster Express

Waterford-Rosslare rail line in stay of execution
By Dermot Keyes. Published on Friday, July 23rd, 2010 at 10:00 am

Cyril Newsome of the Save The Rail (STR) group, who was unable to join his colleagues in a protest at Waterford Bus Station last Saturday due to the absence of wheelchair access on the Bus Éireann service from Rosslare Harbour to Waterford.

The apparently doomed Waterford to Rosslare railway line has been given a stay of execution, to the delight of the Save The Rail (STR) group which is lobbying for its retention.

The National Transport Authority (NTA), the ultimate arbiter with respect to the line’s future, has yet to adjudicate on Iarnród Éireann’s (IE) application to end the service between the Europort and the city.

On May 21st, IE stated its intention to close the line tomorrow (July 21st) but the NTA’s deliberations means that the line stays open – for now.

“Therefore, the existing rail schedule will continue beyond July 21st until further notice,” reads a statement on the IE website “We will advise customers as soon as further information is available.”

In a letter to CIE Group Secretary Geraldine Finucane, fellow lobbyists Rail Users Ireland (RUI) have re-iterated “in the strongest manner possible” their opposition to the line’s potential closure.

Following a meeting with IE on March 31st, RUI representatives revealed that the rail operator “was unwilling to make any effort to promote or provide through services on the site”.

The linking-up of services from Rosslare to the new Western Rail Corridor via Waterford and Limerick has been mooted by supporters of the line’s retention in recent months. However, it would appear that their suggestions are falling upon deaf IE ears.

Interestingly, UK-based lobby group Rail Future, which is also a member of the European Passenger Federation, has also made a submission to the NTA.

In its contribution, Rail Future has highlighted the importance of the rail/sail option linking South Wales with the south east, a potential holiday making link which IE has paid scant attention to.

In the RUI letter to CIE, spokesperson Mark Gleeson claims that IE has failed to meet standards “as laid down in the contract between IE and the NTA” while also breaching its own customer charter.

Calling for IE’s May 21st notice to be withdrawn, Mr Gleeson states: “The NTA has not given its accent to the proposed withdrawal of service and it is understood that the earliest decision will be September 2010…

“We are not alone in considering taking a legal challenge against this proposed closure. Such a formal legal challenge would result in an indefinite delay to closure.”

Meanwhile, the STR group, which held a protest at Waterford Bus Station on Saturday last, had to travel from Rosslare without one of its members – Cyril Newsome, who uses a wheelchair.

http://www.munster-express.ie/busine...-of-execution/

[Mark Gleeson]

The plot thickens, now three private operators in the fray showing an interesting in running the route.

[corktina]

im sure several concerns would like a toe in the door of irish rail operations....their sucess would have profound repercussions for IE surely. More power to them!

I was saddened to see the Red Herring of linking Rosslare operations to the WRC.. If a through service were the best option, Cork would be a better option with decent connections to Limerick at the Junction.(BTW you cant have an indefinate delay...tortology...)

[Alan French]

It's not a red herring. I've no objection to the idea of through services between Rosslare and Cork (as there were until 1973). But the idea of running through services between Rosslare and Galway comes as a consequence of trying to give each part of this line a decent service - preferably every two hours.

Look at it this way. A train arrives at Limerick Junction from Waterford or Rosslare, and another train of the same type and length arrives from Limerick or Galway. Each feeds passengers into trains going both ways on the Dublin-Cork line. Then each returns where it came from.

But if instead each of these trains were to continue "straight ahead" instead of turning back, it would give an improved service at no extra cost, by eliminating a change for passengers going Waterford-Limerick or beyond. Even if few people want to go from Rosslare to Galway, passengers from Tipperary to Limerick will certainly be more encouraged to travel if there is no change at the Junction.

So it's a consequence of trying to give each part of the line a decent service - that's where we start. Now, if it turns out that there are enough passengers for Cork (or the Kerry direction), then a through run may be justified. This means an extra run by a railcar on the Limerick Junction-Cork section. But we are talking about running several trains per day, so it is possible to send some trains to Cork and others to Galway. Is it mainly the boat trains that you have in mind, or some other time of day?

[corktina]

Its a Red Herring (oh no,this is gettin zooologiogal...) because the WRC is a White Elephant and would not help the case of the Rosslare line to be lumped in with it.

[comcor]

If you linked Rosslare to Cork and you brought the Rosslare-Limerick Junction line up to the standard of the Cork-Dublin line and you only stopped 3 or 4 times (which sort of defeats the purpose of providing service on it), it would still take over three hours. The investment required to get it to that level would be pretty huge as well.

The major diversion means rail could never really compete with the bus.

At least a Rosslare-Waterford-Limerick-Galway service is rougly in a straight line.

[corktina]

but the Limerick to Galway bit is fatally flawed in that it has had a lot of cash invested in it (and surely isnt likely to get more one hopes!) but is slower than the road (by a lot) and dearer than the Bus.(by a lot). I cant see a private operator wanting to take on this bit whereas a reliable and sensible service to and from a Ferry Port served by 2 services to Wales and one to France ( I think ) might have a hope of improvement. It really would make a nice self-contained package for an operator if the Dublin and Waterford services were included (OK if you insist,extended to Limerick Junc to connect to Cork na d Limerick/Galway)

[CorkALVIN]

Originally Posted by Alan French

It's not a red herring. I've no objection to the idea of through services between Rosslare and Cork (as there were until 1973). But the idea of running through services between Rosslare and Galway comes as a consequence of trying to give each part of this line a decent service - preferably every two hours.

Look at it this way. A train arrives at Limerick Junction from Waterford or Rosslare, and another train of the same type and length arrives from Limerick or Galway. Each feeds passengers into trains going both ways on the Dublin-Cork line. Then each returns where it came from.

But if instead each of these trains were to continue "straight ahead" instead of turning back, it would give an improved service at no extra cost, by eliminating a change for passengers going Waterford-Limerick or beyond. Even if few people want to go from Rosslare to Galway, passengers from Tipperary to Limerick will certainly be more encouraged to travel if there is no change at the Junction.

So it's a consequence of trying to give each part of the line a decent service - that's where we start. Now, if it turns out that there are enough passengers for Cork (or the Kerry direction), then a through run may be justified. This means an extra run by a railcar on the Limerick Junction-Cork section. But we are talking about running several trains per day, so it is possible to send some trains to Cork and others to Galway. Is it mainly the boat trains that you have in mind, or some other time of day?

Surely, by far and away the most sensible way to restore a decent service-pattern on the Waterford-Rosslare Route would be to extend the existing Dublin-Waterford trains onwards to Rosslare, or Dublin-Rosslare services on to Waterford; extending this to its logical conclusion, trains could run in a big loop Connolly-Rosslare-Waterford-Heuston, even looping between Connolly and Heuston via the Phoenix Park tunnel; I could see IE generating a whole lot more passenger traffic from the same number of railcars and staff (or even less) by doing it this way; also, considering the regular disruptions to the Connolly-Rosslare route due to DART maintenance, an alternative Rosslare Route via Waterford should be a given.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by corktina

im sure several concerns would like a toe in the door of irish rail operations....their sucess would have profound repercussions for IE surely. More power to them!

bet IE never saw that coming as a result of all this. Did the Departments of Finance and Transport though, that's a more interesting question. Oddly enough, back when we used to debate privatisation nobody ever mentioned this line being a rich pickings. Just takes some outside perspective....

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

Oddly enough, back when we used to debate privatisation nobody ever mentioned this line being a rich pickings. Just takes some outside perspective....

Can't look too greedy and ask for Dublin-Cork to start off... have to look all philanthropic like

[Alan French]

Replying to Comcor and Corktina (#63-67), time will tell.

Some of us have looked hard at the practicalities of providing a decent timetable for every route (see "Timetable consultation"). Any train arriving at Limerick Junction from the Waterford direction would have a connection shortly afterwards to Cork by an existing Dublin-Cork train. When that happens, we will get some idea of how many people actually make that connection. If a reasonable number of passengers do make it (whether internal or cross-channel), then it will be worth providing a through train, regardless of what anyone else has predicted. If the number is small, then the connection will still be there for those who want it. This would still be true if the WRC had never re-opened. Members' views differ on the WRC, and there is no need to knock that service to make a case for a Rosslare-Cork train.

The train journey from Rosslare to Cork is at a disadvantage because of its roundabout route, but that doesn't always mean it is completely doomed to failure. In this case, once a good timetable is in place on the Limerick Junction -Waterford line, we will find out at no extra cost what the demand is like for the Cork direction.

A number of people in these columns seem to have fallen for the idea that once a bus or a car can do a journey more quickly than a train, the that railway is doomed to total failure. Some in the media think that way too.
In fact, all sorts of services that people said wouldn't work, have worked.

A useful statistic would be - if anyone can find it - did the Rosslare-Cork route lose many passengers in 1967 when the trains were diverted via Limerick Junction? It continued to be a through service for a further six years.

[corktina]

Originally Posted by Alan French

Replying to Comcor and Corktina (#63-67), time will tell.

Some of us have looked hard at the practicalities of providing a decent timetable for every route (see "Timetable consultation"). Any train arriving at Limerick Junction from the Waterford direction would have a connection shortly afterwards to Cork by an existing Dublin-Cork train. When that happens, we will get some idea of how many people actually make that connection. If a reasonable number of passengers do make it (whether internal or cross-channel), then it will be worth providing a through train, regardless of what anyone else has predicted. If the number is small, then the connection will still be there for those who want it. This would still be true if the WRC had never re-opened. Members' views differ on the WRC, and there is no need to knock that service to make a case for a Rosslare-Cork train.

The train journey from Rosslare to Cork is at a disadvantage because of its roundabout route, but that doesn't always mean it is completely doomed to failure. In this case, once a good timetable is in place on the Limerick Junction -Waterford line, we will find out at no extra cost what the demand is like for the Cork direction.

A number of people in these columns seem to have fallen for the idea that once a bus or a car can do a journey more quickly than a train, the that railway is doomed to total failure. Some in the media think that way too.
In fact, all sorts of services that people said wouldn't work, have worked.

A useful statistic would be - if anyone can find it - did the Rosslare-Cork route lose many passengers in 1967 when the trains were diverted via Limerick Junction? It continued to be a through service for a further six years.

I didnt knock the WRC to make a case for anything,. I was urging that it was not included with the Rosslare line as a through service, for the reasons stated.