Bus/Luas collision on O'Connell St - Page 2

Mark Gleeson · 17-09-2009, 12:24

What might be interesting is the position of the sun, it was behind the tram and quite bright. There is a possibilty that the reflection made the luas traffic signal look like a proceed (bar down) or a conditional proceed (cluster of lights)

There is plently of CCTV so the exact cause will be know, there is of course a chance that the traffic lights showed proceed to both at the same time.

plant43 · 17-09-2009, 13:06

I don't think the fingerpointing by CIE is going to help matters. They should be taking the Veoila stance and not commenting on the investigation.

Mark Gleeson · 17-09-2009, 13:14

Its Dr Lynch mouthing off, he was there himself at 15:45 yesterday.

fat controller · 17-09-2009, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Hold on a sec i was merely suggesting what could have happened i admitted it was a stupid thing to say.

With regards to luas being at fault the only reason i mentioned that was because i know someone who was there and says the traffic light was at green at the time and also that someone on boards mentioned that their brother was on the bike just ahead of the bus and the light was green.
i wasnt there im just saying what i was told. Maybe it could have been a problem with the luas signalling im sure we will find out.

Noones perfect. Attack the post not the poster.

ok sorry im just saying wait until all the fact's are out!

fat controller · 17-09-2009, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by plant43

I don't think the fingerpointing by CIE is going to help matters. They should be taking the Veoila stance and not commenting on the investigation.

quiet right they would try and blame someone else!

ThomasJ · 17-09-2009, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by fat controller

ok sorry im just saying wait until all the fact's are out!

Thanks personally i thought i jumped the gun as did alot of people on the forums yesterday! It will be interesting to see what happens. There was a mention in the paper today that a teenage girl is still in a critical state in hospital. Hopefully everyone will be ok.

Colm Moore · 17-09-2009, 17:11

http://www.garda.ie/PressReleases/Default.aspx

Quote:

Witness Appeal - Luas/Bus Crash on O'Connell Street, Dublin on the 16/9/09.

Anyone who was in the area of O’Connell Street Lower and Abbey Street junction between 2.50 p.m. and 3.15 p.m.

Gardai are appealing for witnesses to collision on O’Connell Street Lower, between a Luas tram and a Dublin Bus about 3.00 p.m. on the 16th of September, to contact them.

They would like to speak to anyone who was in the area of O’Connell Street Lower and Abbey Street junction between 2.50 p.m. and 3.15 p.m.

Gardai also believe that a number of passengers of the bus and the Luas may have left the scene before emergency services arrived and we would like them to contact us.

Anyone with any information is asked to contact Store Street Garda station on 01 666 8000.

Garda Press Office
17th September 2009.

center15 · 17-09-2009, 21:59

A friend of mine was there when the accident happened. She said it was very scary with people shouting for help. She said a special branch Garda car was going down the street the wrong way and a bus was pulling in to let it pass and the luas struct it. Another person on boards said they heard this story from someone by the GPO also.

on the move · 20-09-2009, 01:30

My own theory on it is. The bus driver had the green light, but then got stuck in traffic on the far side, by which time the traffic lights were red, and allowed the Luas to go. The Luas then smashed into the bus.

The whole accident at a notorious flashpoint junction, is an eerie reminder of why we should have had a Metro system, or at the very least a bridge crossing the street for the trams, similiar to the train bridge nearby. You wouldn't see trains attempting to cross streets full of other vehicles in a city centre, so trams shouldn't be allowed either. Instead you have an "Irish" solution, and it leaves the tram a sitting duck without a bridge or barriers as protection for crossing the busiest street in the city. It is solely down to the goodwill and discipline of other transport users that there haven't been more serious incidents on it so far.

undo · 20-09-2009, 01:37

While I agree the Abbey St/O'Connell St junction is rather unfortunate and dangerous, I do think your theory fits the accident: The tram was clearly derailed, its front dragged on quite a distance in the direction of traffic on O'Connell St. IMHO, that can only have happened with the bus moving at considerable speed - and not suck in traffic.

Kilocharlie · 20-09-2009, 10:29

On the move refers to the tram system as an 'Irish solution'. If one were to visit any European city with trams - Amsterdam, Vienna and many more, one would see that the Dublin Luas is actually built to a higher standard with far more seqregation from traffic. Trams crossing main routes is common place; Luas is nothing different. Trams even go through pedestrian zones!

In Vienna, trams run down the middle of some streets and the stops are simply in the middle of the street; no platforms. Traffic is expected to stop while passengers disembark and make their way to the footpath. In other areas, trams share road space with traffic; this only happens is a very few places on Luas - Beresfort Place and Thomas Street. Also many of the older trams around Europe are totally non-wheelchair accessible unlike Luas which is excellent in this regard.

It is also clear the both bus and tram were moving at speed so there is no possibility that the bus was stuck in traffic.

Mark Gleeson · 04-06-2010, 13:35

Quote:

Driver charged over Luas crash
Related
21 injured as Luas and bus crash in city centre | 17/09/2009
Bus had green light - CIE head | 17/09/2009
Luas Crash - Eyewitness Reports | 17/09/2009
The driver of a Luas tram has been charged in connection with a collision with a Dublin Bus on O’Connell Street in the city.

More than 20 people were injured, three seriously, in the incident on September 16th last year.

Oriyomi Emmanuel (37) of Jamestown Park, Ratoath, Co Meath, appeared before the Dublin District Court yesterday and was remanded on bail to appear again on July 28th, the Courts Service said.

Mr Emmanuel was charged with dangerous driving causing injury to Suzanne Cribbon under the Road Traffic Act.

He was also charged with driving his Luas tram in a dangerous manner that posed an unreasonable risk of harm.

The crash between the Luas red line tram and a number16 bus, occurred at the busy junction of O’Connell Street and Abbey Street.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking38.html

So it appears the gardai have obtained sufficient evidence to prove the bus had the right of way and that the Luas jumped a stop signal

Thomas Ralph · 04-06-2010, 13:56

Twas on the Evening Herald too.

MrX · 04-06-2010, 15:51

I thought the Luas had some kind of automation which prevented it from passing a stop signal ?

Clearly isn't the case in the city centre at least if it was possible to jump the lights!

Mark Gleeson · 04-06-2010, 16:30

The Luas is a permissive system so you may start against a red light, though the system will force you to stop approaching a red it appears.

Exact same as the DART really, you can start against a red signal but you get a warning buzzer. If in motion buzzer comes on and the train automatically stops if the driver doesn't select at least neutral, either way train brakes to a walking pace itself

17-09-2009, 12:24	#21
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	What might be interesting is the position of the sun, it was behind the tram and quite bright. There is a possibilty that the reflection made the luas traffic signal look like a proceed (bar down) or a conditional proceed (cluster of lights) There is plently of CCTV so the exact cause will be know, there is of course a chance that the traffic lights showed proceed to both at the same time. __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

17-09-2009, 13:14	#23
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Its Dr Lynch mouthing off, he was there himself at 15:45 yesterday. __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

20-09-2009, 01:30	#29
on the move Regular Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 176	My own theory on it is. The bus driver had the green light, but then got stuck in traffic on the far side, by which time the traffic lights were red, and allowed the Luas to go. The Luas then smashed into the bus. The whole accident at a notorious flashpoint junction, is an eerie reminder of why we should have had a Metro system, or at the very least a bridge crossing the street for the trams, similiar to the train bridge nearby. You wouldn't see trains attempting to cross streets full of other vehicles in a city centre, so trams shouldn't be allowed either. Instead you have an "Irish" solution, and it leaves the tram a sitting duck without a bridge or barriers as protection for crossing the busiest street in the city. It is solely down to the goodwill and discipline of other transport users that there haven't been more serious incidents on it so far. __________________ "We'd like to apologise for..." Last edited by on the move : 20-09-2009 at 01:33.

20-09-2009, 10:29	#31
Kilocharlie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 395	Irish Solution? On the move refers to the tram system as an 'Irish solution'. If one were to visit any European city with trams - Amsterdam, Vienna and many more, one would see that the Dublin Luas is actually built to a higher standard with far more seqregation from traffic. Trams crossing main routes is common place; Luas is nothing different. Trams even go through pedestrian zones! In Vienna, trams run down the middle of some streets and the stops are simply in the middle of the street; no platforms. Traffic is expected to stop while passengers disembark and make their way to the footpath. In other areas, trams share road space with traffic; this only happens is a very few places on Luas - Beresfort Place and Thomas Street. Also many of the older trams around Europe are totally non-wheelchair accessible unlike Luas which is excellent in this regard. It is also clear the both bus and tram were moving at speed so there is no possibility that the bus was stuck in traffic.

04-06-2010, 16:30	#35
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The Luas is a permissive system so you may start against a red light, though the system will force you to stop approaching a red it appears. Exact same as the DART really, you can start against a red signal but you get a warning buzzer. If in motion buzzer comes on and the train automatically stops if the driver doesn't select at least neutral, either way train brakes to a walking pace itself __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

17-09-2009, 13:06	#22
plant43 Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 278	I don't think the fingerpointing by CIE is going to help matters. They should be taking the Veoila stance and not commenting on the investigation.

17-09-2009, 21:59	#28
center15 Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1	A friend of mine was there when the accident happened. She said it was very scary with people shouting for help. She said a special branch Garda car was going down the street the wrong way and a bus was pulling in to let it pass and the luas struct it. Another person on boards said they heard this story from someone by the GPO also.

20-09-2009, 01:37	#30
undo Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 95	While I agree the Abbey St/O'Connell St junction is rather unfortunate and dangerous, I do think your theory fits the accident: The tram was clearly derailed, its front dragged on quite a distance in the direction of traffic on O'Connell St. IMHO, that can only have happened with the bus moving at considerable speed - and not suck in traffic.

04-06-2010, 13:56	#33
Thomas Ralph IT Officer Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greenwich, London Posts: 1,860	Twas on the Evening Herald too.

04-06-2010, 15:51	#34
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	I thought the Luas had some kind of automation which prevented it from passing a stop signal ? Clearly isn't the case in the city centre at least if it was possible to jump the lights!

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