[Article] Pay and Display on the way

[Mark Gleeson]

Other way to look at is why is Irish Rail facilitating non rail users in the car park

They have made no efforts to block non passenger usage, if they where serious about providing a proper car park facility for rail passengers that would be the first thing to do. In many cases it would free up a lot of space without impacting on the long suffering and already overcharged commuter.

If I shop in the shopping centre and buy something I get free parking, if I buy nothing I pay. Everyone has a train ticket so why can't they work it out

[chipper]

I had a wee look at the ticket machines this morning. They accept coins only and do not issue change. Not exactly making it easy for the customer. I find it hard enough to find change for a shopping trolley, never mind a load of coins every single Monday morning. If they take 10c coins I am going to get a bag load of them at the bank and feed 80 of them in every week.

[Mark Hennessy]

Originally Posted by chipper

I had a wee look at the ticket machines this morning. They accept coins only and do not issue change. Not exactly making it easy for the customer. I find it hard enough to find change for a shopping trolley, never mind a load of coins every single Monday morning. If they take 10c coins I am going to get a bag load of them at the bank and feed 80 of them in every week.

Were there many machines at all?
So now we will see massive queues and commuter frustration as they all must queue each Monday morning.

So much for the new ads on taking the relaxing train over the car.

[chipper]

Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy

Were there many machines at all?
So now we will see massive queues and commuter frustration as they all must queue each Monday morning.

So much for the new ads on taking the relaxing train over the car.

There are a fair number of machines dotted all over the car park so I don't see queuing being a problem. Of course if you get five people ahead of you and the train is leaving in a minute and the rain is lashing down and then you have to go back to the car to display the ticket...well only time will tell how smoothly it runs.

I am going to look at avoiding this by buying a weekly ticket in the evening. If I buy a ticket on a Monday morning then it should be valid right through until the same time the next Monday? Am I right? In that case if I buy a ticket on a Monday evening before leaving the station then it should be good right through until the following Monday evening when I get off again?

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by chipper

I am going to look at avoiding this by buying a weekly ticket in the evening. If I buy a ticket on a Monday morning then it should be valid right through until the same time the next Monday? Am I right? In that case if I buy a ticket on a Monday evening before leaving the station then it should be good right through until the following Monday evening when I get off again?

We don't know until we see a weekly ticket

[plant43]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

We don't know until we see a weekly ticket

The weekly tickets in Sallins are valid for exactly 7 days, to the minute.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by chipper

I had a wee look at the ticket machines this morning. They accept coins only and do not issue change. Not exactly making it easy for the customer. I find it hard enough to find change for a shopping trolley, never mind a load of coins every single Monday morning. If they take 10c coins I am going to get a bag load of them at the bank and feed 80 of them in every week.

This only really hurts you. They have machines to count it.

[Thomas Ralph]

And they probably do something like the Luas machines and only take a maximum of X coins.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by tralph

And they probably do something like the Luas machines and only take a maximum of X coins.

Luas machines work on the basis that if you cancel a transaction you get back the exact coins you put in which does impose a limit

Pay and display machines aren't normally that clever

[Mark Gleeson]

Game is afoot from tomorrow

Park-and-ride charges from tomorrow
Controversial park-and-ride charges at nine commuter train stations come into effect from tomorrow.

Dublin bound rail travellers on the northern line from Dundalk to Portmarnock will be hit with the two euro a day fee.

The other 28 stations from Longford to Gorey also planning to charge will be operational by November.

The plan, which transport body CIE said would finance a car-park expansion scheme, was heavily criticised when it was announced in July with transport lobby groups branding it unacceptable.

Mark Gleeson, spokesman for Rail Users Ireland, said: “It’s absolutely ridiculous.

“People are going to arrive in the car park tomorrow morning and they are going to be faced with a pay and display machine.

“It’s bad enough that you have to pay for your ticket but now you have to queue to use a pay and display machine.

“The worst thing of all is that you elect to be cost aware and buy a weekly ticket, but there’s no guarantee there’s going to be a car space for you every day.”

CIE will receive a €1 million euro-a-year slice of the revenue generated from the parking fees with commuters charged two euro a day or a discounted rate of €8 a week.

The body said the revenue would be put towards a major programme of car park expansion by Iarnrod Eireann.

But Mr Gleeson hit out the justification claiming the organisation has not detailed which stations will be upgraded.

“Irish rail have presented no list of what car parks will be upgraded or in what order and what it will comprise. It’s all aspirational,” he said.

Rail Users Ireland said it is considering taking legal action against CIE over the scheme although it is not clear on what that will be based.

Fine Gael’s Transport spokesman Fergus O’Dowd branded the charges a rip-off and has called for a cut in government subsidies to CIE.

“While I have no problem charging people who park at railway stations infrequently, it is extremely unfair on those who have already bought weekly, monthly or annual travel tickets for their commute, so they should be exempt from the charge,” he said.

“Many commuters either walk or cycle to their local station, but this is not always possible and many have no alternative but to park and ride as there are very few bus links to railway stations.

“There has been no public consultation on this new system, which will hit commuters who are already finding their take home pay reduced because of the spiralling cost of living.”

The stations where pay parking will be introduced tomorrow are: Dundalk, Drogheda, Laytown, Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush & Lusk, Donabate, Malahide and Portmarnock on the northern line.

An Iarnrod Eireann spokesman said the remaining stations will come into effect by November.

PA

© 2008 irishtimes.com

[weehamster]

This could be a great opportunity for a private operator to start up a local shuttle bus service.

My Sister has a house south of Gorey, and there is a handy regular private shuttle bus service that bring you in/out of Gorey (going by the train station). Now I'm not sure if they do commuter hours, but they should, especially when the Rosslare line starts charging. Now imaging this at other stations.

Imagine tiny villages linking up with a rail station. Oh I would be in public transport utopia. I would think I was living in Germany or Switzerland.

[Laois Commuter]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Other way to look at is why is Irish Rail facilitating non rail users in the car park

They have made no efforts to block non passenger usage, if they where serious about providing a proper car park facility for rail passengers that would be the first thing to do. In many cases it would free up a lot of space without impacting on the long suffering and already overcharged commuter.

If I shop in the shopping centre and buy something I get free parking, if I buy nothing I pay. Everyone has a train ticket so why can't they work it out

How? You have already I believe indicated that they have no powers to fine. That problem has started to appear as on-street parking charging has been introduced, and motorists have lost their chance of free parking elsewhere. If I did use my car to get to the station, I would be pretty annoyed (as a season ticket holder) to have to queue and get a voucher or token of some sort every day to access the car park.

As regards "overcharged commuters", sorry, that doesn't wash. As I indicated earlier, season tickets are cheap here compared to the UK for example, even before the Taxsaver scheme knocks nearly 50% off the price for many. Go to www.nationalrail.co.uk , and compare Sheffield - Nottingham (£2116 - approx €2645) with Portarlington - Dublin, even at current exchange rates. Level of service on the former is roughly hourly, two coach, unit stock with buffet trolley (sometimes), so the service is comparable; much as dislike the new trains here, they are streets ahead of the trains on this route.

A Portarlington - Dublin Heuston annual costs €2210. Assuming 47 weeks use, 5 days per week, that works out at €47 per week, or about €9.40 per day. That is 11c per mile (assuming 40 miles each way) - and that is before taxsaver. You cannot come near to running a car for that.

LC

[Rusalka]

Originally Posted by Laois Commuter

A Portarlington - Dublin Heuston annual costs €2210. Assuming 47 weeks use, 5 days per week, that works out at €47 per week, or about €9.40 per day. That is 11c per mile (assuming 40 miles each way) - and that is before taxsaver. You cannot come near to running a car for that.

It would be really nice if the €2210 (less tax) was the only charge for everyone, though.

Hubby and I are going to drive from next year on. The €384 parking charge is the main deciding factor, unfortunately. I honestly weighed up the pros and cons of continuing to commute via rail, but unfortunately it's no contest anymore.

Here's our reckoning (lets assume we live in a dream world where the ticket prices don't rise next year ):

Current commute by rail/bus:

Our annual rail passes would cost €4620. (€2210+€2210+one bus add-on of €200)

With 41% taxsaver, we'd actually pay only €2725.80.

Adding 48 weeks parking @ €8 per week (€384) and you get €3109.80 per annum.

Add to this, the cost of driving in and out to the station every day:

2.2km (per Google Maps) x 10 journeys/week = 22km/week or 1056km/year.

Car gets 15km per litre petrol (conservative average town/country driving - we drive a titchy, economical little car!), so at petrol estimate of €1.33 per litre (let's suppose it goes up again), that's an additional €93.63 per annum.

When we get into Heuston, I would take the 92 or walk if the weather's good, so my ticket would be covered by my bus add-on of €200. However, my husband needs to take 2 buses to get to work (3 days a week), so he uses a Travel 90 ticket, costing €1.70 each way. This is an additional €10.20 per week, or €489.60 per annum.

Grand total for our 48 week year is then €3109.80 (train) + €93.63 (petrol to/from station) + €489.60 (Dublin Bus) = €3693.03, or €76.94 per week.

Switching to a commute by car is as follows:

Route to work, including a little detour on days he travels, and drops me off: 74.19km each way 3 days a week and 69.89km each way 2 days a week (per AA RoutePlanner) = 724.7km/week. Given our 15km/litre, that takes about 48.31 litres of petrol, and costed again at, say, €1.33, that's €64.26 per week, or €3084.32 per annum.

So we have €3693.03 per 48-week annum for the train/bus option, and €3084.32 for the driving option, saving about €608.71 - little more than the cost of the parking charge, you might say, ASSUMING ticket prices for rail and bus stay the same next year - and that's not going to happen, is it?

However, when you consider the commute times as follows:

Daily commute by rail/bus:
(Average daily commute times we currently do most often than not when we have to drive)
Inbound:
Him: Dep. 07.30, Arr. 09.40 = 2 hours 10 minutes
Her: Dep. 07.30, Arr. 09.15 = 1 hour 45 minutes
Outbound:
Him: Dep. 17.00, Arr. 19.30 = 2 hours 30 minutes
Her: Dep. 17.30, Arr. 19.30 = 2 hours

Total time: 8 hours 25 minutes

Daily commute by car:
(Maximum trip times encountered to date - for example, Monday mornings through school term times, and Friday evenings)
Inbound:
Him: Dep. 06.30, Arr. 08.00 = 1 hour 30 minutes
Her: Dep. 06.30, Arr. 07.45 = 1 hour 15 minutes
Outbound:
Him: Dep. 16.00, Arr. 17.45 = 1 hour 45 minutes
Her: Dep. 16.15, Arr. 17.45 = 1 hour 30 minutes

Total time: 6 hours

I know we have to leave earlier than usual, but we get home earlier too (both have flexible working hours). If we leave at 7am, it takes about 20 minutes longer to get in, at 7.30am, it takes about 35 minutes longer to get in, but leaving at 8am, we can add only an additional 20 minutes or so, but then we wouldn't be able to leave early in the evening, and as the journey time is quite unpredictable leaving Dublin city centre past 4.30pm, at that stage it could take about 2 hours to get home (which is still as quick as the train!), but we'd be better off having supper in Dublin and waiting past rush hour until about 6.30pm before leaving, as it would be more pleasurable than sitting in the traffic.

As well as this, we're currently paying for our annual tickets, but we find that we often have to drive 2, 3 or 4 times a month anyway, as we will want to go out in Dublin for a gig or a meal or to see friends/family, and there is simply no train to get us home afterwards.

So that's why we're back in the car from next January. Oh, that and the antisocial muppets who use the train - smokers, and rail staff who just don't care about it, crappy-noisy-earbud-wearers (the byelaw-breaking tools!), Crazy Frog ringtone users, hen and stag parties getting p*ssed, the queueing at Heuston for seats some (most?) days, the late boarding of trains, cancellation of trains, bus transfers, school tours booking up whole carriages at a time, waiting in the rain for buses to/from Heuston, etc., etc., etc. - all things we were willing to put up with in the past.

At least in the car, I don't have to queue, it's always clean (ish!), it's always quiet (or I have music of MY choice!) and dry, and there's no antisocial gobshytes (unless I'm being particularly cranky!)

I know the roads can have problems too - pile-ups, slow moving traffic in adverse weather, stress of dealing with some stoopit road-users, etc., but honestly, we feel it'll be less painful than the train has become.

I'm not arguing that cars are the perfect way to go - far from it - I LOVE trains, and I take them all over Europe (including the gorgeous sleepers!) in preference to any other form of transport, but this latest charge (for what really is a crappy, crappy parking facility) is just a step too far for me, I'm sad to say.

[ACustomer]

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

Another advantage of the car in some cases is that it offers far greater flexibility than public transport. This is due to our poor coverage and integration but for example I would rarely go straight home after work be it lectures, meetings, training etc. Public transport does not give a lot of people that flexibility and in most cases it would take far longer.

There is no 'one solution' to making people less car dependant but rather several which all have to be coordinated in their approach and implementation.

[ThomasJ]

A flashback [this is in relation to the lack of facilities securitywise and no proper maintenanceetc.]

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...g-1254241.html

Rail chiefs promise motorists extra car parking
By Treacy Hogan and Shane Hickey


Friday December 28 2007

RAIL commuters forced to park their cars at supermarkets and churches before running for the train are being promised more than 13,000 parking spaces at stations.

Drivers will have to pay, but at much lower rates than commercial car parks.

Rail chiefs have drawn up plans to provide new pay-parking facilities at over 60 stations, many of which are packed by 7.30am daily.

The move coincides with major increases in frequencies and capacities of services planned across the network under Transport 21.

The additional spaces will meet current demand and allow for further expansion into the future.

A spokesperson for Iarnrod Eireann said yesterday the spaces will cost €2 a day or €5 a week. The revenue will be used for maintenance of the car parks and the provision of CCTV.
Belt

Highlights of the proposals include: the largest public transport park and ride facility in the country; a 1,200 space car park, north of Dunboyne at the M3 interchange -- the terminus for the Clonsilla-Dunboyne (M3) line, which will serve the wider area of Co Meath and beyond.

It will also feaure major car parks at new stations such as Dunboyne, Midleton, Carrigtwohill, Dunkettle, Clondalkin's Fonthill Road and Oranmore, as well as enhancements to parking at over 50 existing stations, including over 20 in the greater Dublin commuter belt.

As well as expanding car park facilities, work will incorporate enhanced bicycle facilities, and CCTV and other security features.
The programme will be phased in over the coming five years and will be prioritised according to demand, land availability and as planning permission allows.

Dr John Lynch, CIE and Iarnrod Eireann chairman, said yesterday: "It is critical that we open up the benefits of rail investment to as wide a catchment area as possible through the development of quality car park facilities.

"Although this programme addresses over 60 stations, we will continue to seek opportunities for further car park development around our network," he added.

Transport Minister Noel Dempsey TD said: "People can feel re-assured that they can leave their car at a station and take the train to work, thus reducing the hassle of getting in and out of work and improving their commuting experience."
- Treacy Hogan and Shane Hickey

[ThomasJ]

I don't know if mentioned atall but Greystones have all the luck!

Free parking available

Thursday July 24 2008

Greystones commuters will still be able to avail of free parking at the Park n Ride site that is situated within walking distance of the Dart Station.It was announced last week by Irish Rail that charges will be introduced to Park n Ride sites owned by Irish Rail.
Greystones commuters will still be able to avail of free parking at the Park n Ride site that is situated within walking distance of the Dart Station.

It was announced last week by Irish Rail that charges will be introduced to Park n Ride sites owned by Irish Rail.

Councillor Derek Mitchell has welcomed the decision by Wicklow County Council to continue their policy of free parking at their Park n Ride site in Greystones.

The large car park, that is one of the biggest in Ireland with 462 spaces, will remain a free parking site.

Many commuters in Greystones have been confused by the announcement and feared that they would have to pay for parking at the Dart Station.

Local councillors and Wicklow County Council would like to assure commuters that there will be no changes to the free Park n Ride in Greystones.

[Rusalka]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 35 cents per km would be more than the car was worth!!!! Per annum!!! Twice over!!! I certainly take your point, but I don't think that's at all realistic, somehow. Certainly not for our car!

We've driven 25000km in the car so far. That's ~ €8960 depreciation or cost of ownership by your estimation (I read that article, actually, and I think they agreed themselves it was a hard thing to quantify, and certainly not a science), but anyway, the car cost about €7000. CMV of the car is now worth about €5800 - €6000 after just over 2 years driving.

At 35 cents per km, you're looking at over €12,000 per annum in cost of ownership alone, if that article is to be believed. That's a bit mad, in all fairness - sure if that was the case I'd be buying a newer (to me!), better car every year!

Lord help us, maybe that's the cost of owning a feckin' Rolls or something, but my car costs nowhere near that! We've lost about €1000+ in depreciation, put 1 new set of tyres under it, and with minor servicing, NCT, etc., but it still works out at only about 8c/km, plus petrol so far.

No, I do see the point you're trying to make, but I think it depends a lot on the car. I don't buy 17" tyres, for example!

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by Rusalka

I don't buy 17" tyres, for example!

sadly I do, and at over a hundred euro each I have plenty of reason to curse the local authorities of the midlands.

As someone who drives well over 50k a year I just tend to ignore all this depreciation thing. If you start off with a second hand car a few years old then the base line foe depreciation is off kilter to start with. Add to that the emo factor that date-definitive registration brings on and you end up with a shaky science to start with. My car is officially worth nothing here, but up in Dublin it's valuable to a taxi driver, for example.

[Laois Commuter]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Rusalka: your costings are seriously wrong in one crucial respect. You estimate motoring costs purely on the basis of fuel (15 kms per litre), i.e. less than 10 cents per km. What about extra depreciation, maintanance, tyre wear, etc etc? There are good estimates of costs per km published in recent editions of the Iriah Times motoring supplement. These work out at a minimum of close to 35 cents per km. So go and do some serious re-calculation or you may be about to make an unwise decision.

Yep. Even ignoring the "fixed costs" of insurance, tax, and part of the depreciation, servicing intervals will be reduced, tyre replacement will increase, and the journey time may not be quite as reliable as journey planners may suggest. I would also query 15km/litre in the real world - unless you are driving a hybrid, or sticking rigidly to 90km/h or thereabouts on the M7 which I find unlikely. Traffic queues in Dublin would also seriously increase fuel use due to stop start driving.

The cost I worked out was to compare the ticket costs with the UK, to refute the "over-charged" element of the post I quoted. 47 weeks was used, not the 48 you have used, on the basis of 4 weeks annual leave, plus bank holidays, which is the norm.

If you can get to work on the 92, use a bike. I do when working in a city centre office - it takes 10-15 minutes to get to Stephens Green or the ILFC. If I have to go to Dundrum or Stillorgan, I cycle to the Green and get the LUAS. Cycling costs nothing apart from a squirt of oil and new brake pads every now and then.

LC