Metro to remove 41,000 cars from Dublin

James Shields · 08-03-2006, 17:41

Quote:

Especially if Irish Rail took a leaf out of my "Channelling" idea, 20 potentially ful trains per hour would be going through Glasnevin area in peak time

I think I missed that one. I presume it uses the Midland line and the Park tunnel?

Maybe we should keep quiet about that one - might put the frightners on the RPA and make them refuse the Glasnevin Junction interchange even more strongly.

I think with 90m trains Metro should match the capacity of a DART line.

philip · 08-03-2006, 18:02

Didn't Mark say 33k/h? That's massive for 1 line. Sure the DART does what, 100k an day tops at the moment? There's plenty of capacity in that metro line and by the time the line route densifies to make it an issue there will be other lines. Things are gonna be rough for the public transport passenger for a number of years yet, even post T21 there will be dead spots needing more Luas and metro. The airport spur might someday come back too, if the line can be 4 tracked to beyond Howth Junction. I'm glad I live on the northside though, the older parts of the southside are gonna have to wait some time yet. Post T21 it would still be quite unfair to charge many in the likes of Kimmage for congestion charging, which is a shame. It should be the goal to be able to charge cars out of town.

Maskhadov · 10-03-2006, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip

Didn't Mark say 33k/h? That's massive for 1 line. Sure the DART does what, 100k an day tops at the moment? There's plenty of capacity in that metro line and by the time the line route densifies to make it an issue there will be other lines. Things are gonna be rough for the public transport passenger for a number of years yet, even post T21 there will be dead spots needing more Luas and metro. The airport spur might someday come back too, if the line can be 4 tracked to beyond Howth Junction. I'm glad I live on the northside though, the older parts of the southside are gonna have to wait some time yet. Post T21 it would still be quite unfair to charge many in the likes of Kimmage for congestion charging, which is a shame. It should be the goal to be able to charge cars out of town.

What we need post T-21 is another 2 + Metro Lines. I think we probably need a outer orbital metro line and something that serves the port area ( for the port project). Still there will lots of area with no access to decent public infastructure.

sean · 08-03-2006, 18:05

The idea was floated (though not very well) on the Glasnevin Junction thread.

That if you managed to pack everything going to/from the Clonsilla direction onto the Midland line, leaving the Drumcondra line abandoned, you could take a bunch of trains from Heuston Islandbridge into Connolly and the Docks. So you could for example take the key Intercity trains into Connolly and main Commuter services into Spencer Dock.

If the Sligo and Longford trains were rerouted to terminate South of Connolly, even more conflicts would be abolished as would demands on Connolly platform time, and the implementation of the DRP would eliminate virtually all running-service conflicts.

In summary, the theoretical capacity of the Junction is, in my veiw, something of an order several times what is currently being exploited - possibly up to 10x.

That could change at any time and yes, the RPA should be scared.

philip · 08-03-2006, 20:41

But that would leave Heuston basically empty, would it not? I see no problem using Heuston as much as possible for IC services. Anyone coming from Cork etc. won't mind being able to descend a flight of stairs to a DART to Stephen's Green etc. It's as good as you'll get in London arriving into every mainline station there. Even plenty of european cities are like that.

I would like outer commuter trains to be able to use the Drumcondra line someday and Sligo/Maynooth use the Midland but this only needs to happen if there are serious numbers of Kildare outer commuter trains wanting to get to Connolly.

The plans today are DART to Hazelhatch but I'd rather extend to Kildare and let them use the interconnector directly to St. Stephen's green than spend money on two new (pretty expensive) stations on the Midland Line (you'd need to build a twin for Drumcondra too).

In the context of a DART to Kildare you're only talking Portlaoise and Carlow commuter trains that might be diverted to Connolly/Spencer Dock. I think the Drumcondra Line could actually take those in it's stride.

In an ideal world I'd like to see what you're suggesting Sean but I don't think it'll happen until well after T21. The good thing about T21 is that it'll get many more people used to good connections and then people will demand the sort of extras you mention. At the moment 95% of people don't expect us to ever be like a proper european city and as things start to be delivered this will change. I can't wait until everyone in Dublin is screaming for improvements.

sean · 08-03-2006, 23:06

No, it wouldn't leave Heuston empty. remember DARTs not going to Kildare, so that's a bunch of trains that cant use the Interconnector.

Throw in up to 6 Commuter trains per hour to/from places like Athlone and up to 6 Intercities per hour from 2008.

You couldn't send more than 10 TPH over the Phoinex Park Line and even that is probably pushing the envelope. That still leaves roughly 2 TPH that have to stay in Heuston.

The redeployment of trains to Connolly and the Docks would be for premium trains, such as the CDE Intercity could go to Connolly station terminal. Also, Commuter trains that are known to be the most utilised could be sent to Islandbridge and the Docklands.

Some stuff would stil terminate in Heuston such as lower-priority Commuter trains and lightly used or experimental Intercity services could terminate there also such as Mayo direct services.

But that is off topic.

------------------------------

My question is, if this were done, and there was an interchage somewhere near Glasnevin, what would the likely effect of 20TPH interchanging with the Metro be on the Metros ridership?

Mark Gleeson · 08-03-2006, 23:32

A bit or realism is required with respect to train services through Glasnevin

Dublin Cork services are not going to use the Park Tunnel the time cost is excessive so you need more rolling stock The park tunnel is of primary use before the interconnector is built afterwards. DART services on the Maynooth line are not proposed for the Midland line thus very limited capacity exists on the Drumcondra route.

Connolly and Spencer Dock are small terminals by standards and Connolly will be at its limit with expanded Sligo, Belfast and full responsibility for Dundalk services.

No one can can make any firm plans until the publication of the inquiry report in the Kildare Route Project it may or may not force the issue and its worth waiting

Integration with the Metro is complex and requires a lot of thought and it requires tradeoffs put simply this requries a lot of research into where people are coming from and going to

philip · 08-03-2006, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean

My question is, if this were done, and there was an interchage somewhere near Glasnevin, what would the likely effect of 20TPH interchanging with the Metro be on the Metros ridership?

I don't think it'll kill it. The metro is to be 33k per hour capacity. People on these PPT trains would have already been able to change to metroWest at Kishoge for Dublin Airport and then at Heuston for much of the south inner city with the DART and indeed parts of the north inner city with Luas or stay on board to Connolly/Spencer Dock for the IFSC. I actually think the numbers changing from PPT trains would only really amount to DCU students and a handful of others. Nothing that could swamp the system. Most changes will be from Maynooth/Sligo trains who are headed for the north and south inner city. I think we're forgetting just how much 33k people looks like. The DART does only 3 times that number in an entire day. I'd like to see the option but to install two stations on the midland line (and electrify it for Maynooth DARTs) would be considerably expensive. I'd rather direct that cash at quading the Kildare line to Kildare and electrifying that as per the orignal plan and allowing far more 0 change journeys that way, same with Drogheda.

Donal Quinn · 09-03-2006, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by philip

(you'd need to build a twin for Drumcondra too).

that pedometer site is class
thought i'd use it to show the best location for a second station in drumcondra

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=55723

thats a 230m long platform there with space for more

the idea is that it DOESN'T open on to jones rd as there are crowd safety implications so close to the stadium
instead opens on to drumcondra rd - still a short walk to croker
of course if the GAA wanted to pay for and build an entrance to the station (closed on match days)on the croker side so people could use it for their conference and hotel (one change to airport!) there'd be no bother there

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08-03-2006, 18:02	#2
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	Didn't Mark say 33k/h? That's massive for 1 line. Sure the DART does what, 100k an day tops at the moment? There's plenty of capacity in that metro line and by the time the line route densifies to make it an issue there will be other lines. Things are gonna be rough for the public transport passenger for a number of years yet, even post T21 there will be dead spots needing more Luas and metro. The airport spur might someday come back too, if the line can be 4 tracked to beyond Howth Junction. I'm glad I live on the northside though, the older parts of the southside are gonna have to wait some time yet. Post T21 it would still be quite unfair to charge many in the likes of Kimmage for congestion charging, which is a shame. It should be the goal to be able to charge cars out of town.

08-03-2006, 18:05	#4
sean Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dublin Posts: 707	The idea was floated (though not very well) on the Glasnevin Junction thread. That if you managed to pack everything going to/from the Clonsilla direction onto the Midland line, leaving the Drumcondra line abandoned, you could take a bunch of trains from Heuston Islandbridge into Connolly and the Docks. So you could for example take the key Intercity trains into Connolly and main Commuter services into Spencer Dock. If the Sligo and Longford trains were rerouted to terminate South of Connolly, even more conflicts would be abolished as would demands on Connolly platform time, and the implementation of the DRP would eliminate virtually all running-service conflicts. In summary, the theoretical capacity of the Junction is, in my veiw, something of an order several times what is currently being exploited - possibly up to 10x. That could change at any time and yes, the RPA should be scared.

08-03-2006, 20:41	#5
philip Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 632	But that would leave Heuston basically empty, would it not? I see no problem using Heuston as much as possible for IC services. Anyone coming from Cork etc. won't mind being able to descend a flight of stairs to a DART to Stephen's Green etc. It's as good as you'll get in London arriving into every mainline station there. Even plenty of european cities are like that. I would like outer commuter trains to be able to use the Drumcondra line someday and Sligo/Maynooth use the Midland but this only needs to happen if there are serious numbers of Kildare outer commuter trains wanting to get to Connolly. The plans today are DART to Hazelhatch but I'd rather extend to Kildare and let them use the interconnector directly to St. Stephen's green than spend money on two new (pretty expensive) stations on the Midland Line (you'd need to build a twin for Drumcondra too). In the context of a DART to Kildare you're only talking Portlaoise and Carlow commuter trains that might be diverted to Connolly/Spencer Dock. I think the Drumcondra Line could actually take those in it's stride. In an ideal world I'd like to see what you're suggesting Sean but I don't think it'll happen until well after T21. The good thing about T21 is that it'll get many more people used to good connections and then people will demand the sort of extras you mention. At the moment 95% of people don't expect us to ever be like a proper european city and as things start to be delivered this will change. I can't wait until everyone in Dublin is screaming for improvements.

08-03-2006, 23:06	#6
sean Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Dublin Posts: 707	No, it wouldn't leave Heuston empty. remember DARTs not going to Kildare, so that's a bunch of trains that cant use the Interconnector. Throw in up to 6 Commuter trains per hour to/from places like Athlone and up to 6 Intercities per hour from 2008. You couldn't send more than 10 TPH over the Phoinex Park Line and even that is probably pushing the envelope. That still leaves roughly 2 TPH that have to stay in Heuston. The redeployment of trains to Connolly and the Docks would be for premium trains, such as the CDE Intercity could go to Connolly station terminal. Also, Commuter trains that are known to be the most utilised could be sent to Islandbridge and the Docklands. Some stuff would stil terminate in Heuston such as lower-priority Commuter trains and lightly used or experimental Intercity services could terminate there also such as Mayo direct services. But that is off topic. ------------------------------ My question is, if this were done, and there was an interchage somewhere near Glasnevin, what would the likely effect of 20TPH interchanging with the Metro be on the Metros ridership?

08-03-2006, 23:32	#7
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	A bit or realism is required with respect to train services through Glasnevin Dublin Cork services are not going to use the Park Tunnel the time cost is excessive so you need more rolling stock The park tunnel is of primary use before the interconnector is built afterwards. DART services on the Maynooth line are not proposed for the Midland line thus very limited capacity exists on the Drumcondra route. Connolly and Spencer Dock are small terminals by standards and Connolly will be at its limit with expanded Sligo, Belfast and full responsibility for Dundalk services. No one can can make any firm plans until the publication of the inquiry report in the Kildare Route Project it may or may not force the issue and its worth waiting Integration with the Metro is complex and requires a lot of thought and it requires tradeoffs put simply this requries a lot of research into where people are coming from and going to