Troubled times ahead on the Belfast line

Colm Donoghue · 22-01-2008, 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Once the Newry bypass is upgraded to DC, the Enterprise is in real trouble.

And ground has been broken on this project already - topsoil is all cleared. and some earthworks well in progress

James Shields · 22-01-2008, 22:56

Do people take the train just because it's faster than driving/the bus?

It may be one factor, but I think it's some way down most people's priorities. People want to arrive reliably, on time, and in comfort. If you can sort those issues out, it's not going to make a great deal of difference to most people whether the journey takes 90 mins or two hours. If you want the get to Dublin during business hours, the problem is not around Newry, it's inside the M50.

Of course, we're a long way from sorting our those issues at the moment. We need to have trains that don't break down, that arrive when they're supposed to. We need train staff that treat customers with respect. We need to give them things they can't get in their car, like Wi-Fi. These are the things that will bring people back to the train, regardless of how good the motorway is.

Derek Wheeler · 22-01-2008, 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Shields

Do people take the train just because it's faster than driving/the bus?

It may be one factor, but I think it's some way down most people's priorities. People want to arrive reliably, on time, and in comfort. If you can sort those issues out, it's not going to make a great deal of difference to most people whether the journey takes 90 mins or two hours. If you want the get to Dublin during business hours, the problem is not around Newry, it's inside the M50.

Of course, we're a long way from sorting our those issues at the moment. We need to have trains that don't break down, that arrive when they're supposed to. We need train staff that treat customers with respect. We need to give them things they can't get in their car, like Wi-Fi. These are the things that will bring people back to the train, regardless of how good the motorway is.

I agree with you James, but unfortunetly the operator is a long way short of achieving that. Also bare in mind that not all travellers will think along your lines of thought. The railway needs to compete with the road option and it needs to do so very vigorously. European transport history is littered with rail companies striving for higher speeds, more customer comforts and all in a bid to beat the "motorway". Despite a rapid motorway programme in Ireland we appear content to patch up the tracks and offer very outdated customer perks. At a time of what IE call unprecedented investment, why oh why are they looking for a 1960s style railway?

Derek Wheeler · 22-01-2008, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

And ground has been broken on this project already - topsoil is all cleared. and some earthworks well in progress

Indeed. I saw it last week on the way to Armagh. Once the section north of Newry gets the grade sepeation treatment, its gonna do some business. I know James has made a good point about the train and its alternative benefits, but unless we get in line with other European nations, the Enterprise will die.

I love rail, but I will say to people here that if you love rail then accept that it needs to up its game considerably if its going to keep attracting passengers from the improving road network.

James Shields · 23-01-2008, 01:26

My point is it's not the road that's attracting people away from the train, it's the shoddy service on the train that's pushing people on to the road. If you need to get to Dublin for a 9am meeting, and you now you've only a 60% chance of making it on the train, then it's a no brainer, you take the car even if you have to leave an hour earlier to do it. It would be nice to have faster journey times, but I'd rather be able to depend on the current ones.

After that, I think service frequency is the next big issue. Sligo now has the same frequency as Belfast, which given the difference in population, makes no sense. An hourly service is a must.

Third I would put the on-board experience. Nobody wants to be squashed on like cattle, though increasing the frequency should help to solve that problem. Other factors such as comfortable seating, good on train information, lighting, toilets, catering, power sockets, quiet areas, and on-board entertainment (such as internet access) all contribute to passenger experience.

After we've got all those sorted out, we can start looking at the journey times, but I don't believe it will attract people back to the train as much as the above issues. Obviously, if IE are relaying track, they should do it to a standard that can take 125mph trains, because that's not a whole lot more expensive than maintaining he status quo. Similarly, if new trains are being bought, they should be capable of 125mph.

But reducing the journey times without fixing the other problems is just an exercise self delusion.

al2637 · 23-01-2008, 09:21

Also remember that the majority of people in Dublin (same goes for Belfast) don't live within a 10min walk of Connolly. So you've then got the extra time and hassle of getting to the station which just makes it unviable for most.

If I live in Blanch, Tallaght, Lucan, Rathfarnham etc etc getting to Connolly or Hueston to take an IC service is more hassle than it's worth.

Until we have a *reliable*, integrated transport solution in the city the IC services won't make any inroads into the motorway.

dowlingm · 23-01-2008, 19:12

Given that the Republic of Ireland is now directly subventing infrastructure and programmes in NI, it could be that the ROI taxpayer will, directly or indirectly, be paying more than the usual 50pc. That's fine with me, whatever gets the job done rather than wait for the NI Assembly to scrap some coppers together.

plant43 · 01-03-2008, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

And ground has been broken on this project already - topsoil is all cleared. and some earthworks well in progress

Sorry to dig up this old thread but the latest on the Newry Bypass is that the topsoil works revealed some sites of archealogical interest, so the contractor is discussing with the authorities how best to proceed. In the meantime, no work is being done and I think it's been about a month since anything happened.

James Shields · 01-03-2008, 09:25

They should give the lads working on the M3 a call, they'd tell them how to deal with situations like this (I've heard anecdotal evidence that several finds along the route of the M3 have been bulldozed before anyone had a chance to tell the archaeologists).

GNR · 02-04-2008, 06:52

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/background/7325380.stm

Northern Ireland Railways has revealed that its premier service, the Belfast to Dublin Enterprise, is losing money and needs a £500m overhaul.

It has also emerged that on average an Enterprise train breaks down every eight days.

A standard adult return fare between Belfast and Dublin currently costs £36.00.

Regional Development Minister Conor Murphy has admitted there are problems with the service.

"There is always room for improvement - you can never be complacent and say a service can't be improved," said Mr Murphy.

"And some of the flaws relate to the structure the service operates on, which is the responsibility of ourselves and the two railway companies, to try and decrease the time between the two cities.

"Travel on the train between the two cities is hugely important for both administrations."

richards · 02-04-2008, 07:22

The report on the BBC was good as it has brought to light the large amount of 'failures' which occur with the rail stock. However it mentions that the diesel engines are 15 years old and the rail stock is 10+ years. This is not the issue. For example the Eurostar rail stock (while electric) is the same age as the IE/NIR Diesel Loco's and the rolling stock is actually newer that the Eurostar stock. I applicate that there are issues with IE Loco's and (CAWS??) operating on NIR rail lines and signaling etc and that there are only 6 loco's available to cover the Enterprise service.

There have been big improvements in Diesel Rail-cars over the last 15 years which are probably more suited to rail operations in Ireland. The new 22K stock used by IE is an example of this.

Mark Gleeson · 02-04-2008, 08:29

The biggest problems on the Enterprise are

1. The coaches which suffer from a large number of problems, doors, brakes mainly. They share the same design as the Eurostar but little in engineering terms

2. Very poor track in Northern Ireland slows things down

3. 60% of delays occur in Northern Ireland, but 52% of the distance is in the Republic

4. Locomotives have problems with powering the coaches, unique since its only used on the Belfast run. Irish Rail have spent a small fortune to sort this out with considerable success

5. Its very very hilly north of Dundalk

02-04-2008, 07:22	#11
richards New to the board Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 17	BBC Report The report on the BBC was good as it has brought to light the large amount of 'failures' which occur with the rail stock. However it mentions that the diesel engines are 15 years old and the rail stock is 10+ years. This is not the issue. For example the Eurostar rail stock (while electric) is the same age as the IE/NIR Diesel Loco's and the rolling stock is actually newer that the Eurostar stock. I applicate that there are issues with IE Loco's and (CAWS??) operating on NIR rail lines and signaling etc and that there are only 6 loco's available to cover the Enterprise service. There have been big improvements in Diesel Rail-cars over the last 15 years which are probably more suited to rail operations in Ireland. The new 22K stock used by IE is an example of this.

02-04-2008, 08:29	#12
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The biggest problems on the Enterprise are 1. The coaches which suffer from a large number of problems, doors, brakes mainly. They share the same design as the Eurostar but little in engineering terms 2. Very poor track in Northern Ireland slows things down 3. 60% of delays occur in Northern Ireland, but 52% of the distance is in the Republic 4. Locomotives have problems with powering the coaches, unique since its only used on the Belfast run. Irish Rail have spent a small fortune to sort this out with considerable success 5. Its very very hilly north of Dundalk __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

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22-01-2008, 22:56	#2
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	Do people take the train just because it's faster than driving/the bus? It may be one factor, but I think it's some way down most people's priorities. People want to arrive reliably, on time, and in comfort. If you can sort those issues out, it's not going to make a great deal of difference to most people whether the journey takes 90 mins or two hours. If you want the get to Dublin during business hours, the problem is not around Newry, it's inside the M50. Of course, we're a long way from sorting our those issues at the moment. We need to have trains that don't break down, that arrive when they're supposed to. We need train staff that treat customers with respect. We need to give them things they can't get in their car, like Wi-Fi. These are the things that will bring people back to the train, regardless of how good the motorway is.

23-01-2008, 01:26	#5
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	My point is it's not the road that's attracting people away from the train, it's the shoddy service on the train that's pushing people on to the road. If you need to get to Dublin for a 9am meeting, and you now you've only a 60% chance of making it on the train, then it's a no brainer, you take the car even if you have to leave an hour earlier to do it. It would be nice to have faster journey times, but I'd rather be able to depend on the current ones. After that, I think service frequency is the next big issue. Sligo now has the same frequency as Belfast, which given the difference in population, makes no sense. An hourly service is a must. Third I would put the on-board experience. Nobody wants to be squashed on like cattle, though increasing the frequency should help to solve that problem. Other factors such as comfortable seating, good on train information, lighting, toilets, catering, power sockets, quiet areas, and on-board entertainment (such as internet access) all contribute to passenger experience. After we've got all those sorted out, we can start looking at the journey times, but I don't believe it will attract people back to the train as much as the above issues. Obviously, if IE are relaying track, they should do it to a standard that can take 125mph trains, because that's not a whole lot more expensive than maintaining he status quo. Similarly, if new trains are being bought, they should be capable of 125mph. But reducing the journey times without fixing the other problems is just an exercise self delusion.

23-01-2008, 09:21	#6
al2637 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 191	Also remember that the majority of people in Dublin (same goes for Belfast) don't live within a 10min walk of Connolly. So you've then got the extra time and hassle of getting to the station which just makes it unviable for most. If I live in Blanch, Tallaght, Lucan, Rathfarnham etc etc getting to Connolly or Hueston to take an IC service is more hassle than it's worth. Until we have a reliable, integrated transport solution in the city the IC services won't make any inroads into the motorway.

23-01-2008, 19:12	#7
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	Given that the Republic of Ireland is now directly subventing infrastructure and programmes in NI, it could be that the ROI taxpayer will, directly or indirectly, be paying more than the usual 50pc. That's fine with me, whatever gets the job done rather than wait for the NI Assembly to scrap some coppers together.

01-03-2008, 09:25	#9
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	They should give the lads working on the M3 a call, they'd tell them how to deal with situations like this (I've heard anecdotal evidence that several finds along the route of the M3 have been bulldozed before anyone had a chance to tell the archaeologists).

02-04-2008, 06:52	#10
GNR New to the board Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 4	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/background/7325380.stm Northern Ireland Railways has revealed that its premier service, the Belfast to Dublin Enterprise, is losing money and needs a £500m overhaul. It has also emerged that on average an Enterprise train breaks down every eight days. A standard adult return fare between Belfast and Dublin currently costs £36.00. Regional Development Minister Conor Murphy has admitted there are problems with the service. "There is always room for improvement - you can never be complacent and say a service can't be improved," said Mr Murphy. "And some of the flaws relate to the structure the service operates on, which is the responsibility of ourselves and the two railway companies, to try and decrease the time between the two cities. "Travel on the train between the two cities is hugely important for both administrations."