A damning indictment of Irish Rail's Intercity service.

[CSL]

No, there is a point to be made here I think. I and a lot of other people assume that a closed gate means sweet FA in Heuston since there is no sign, whether electronic or otherwise that something may happen.

We assume just like the rest of Irish life, nobody has bothered to open the gate; therefore no penalty for lashing for it.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by CSL

No, there is a point to be made here I think. I and a lot of other people assume that a closed gate means sweet FA in Heuston since there is no sign, whether electronic or otherwise that something may happen.

We assume just like the rest of Irish life, nobody has bothered to open the gate; therefore no penalty for lashing for it.

You wouldn't do it at an airport would you??

If the gate is closed, its closed, wait and form a queue, far too often the train in the platform is not the one you are looking for, imagine this guy boarded and the train vanished off to Inchicore. Equally the ticket checker may have been required to assist a passenger to board the train and had to close the gate. The gate exists to prevent passengers from boarding a train when they shouldn't, that is perfectly reasonable

If everyone started to open the locked gates in Heuston just because they felt like it it would cause all out chaos

You are required to have your ticket validated/stamped etc if there is a gate, again you will find this is common across the rest of Europe where you must get the ticket punched or stamped before boarding and failure to do so will result in trouble. Now its inconsistent but still

The host was correct to refuse access as the ticket wasn't stamped when it should be, however his attitude in dealing with the issue was way out of line

Ticket checks on the Cork line are conducted normally after Limerick Junction Cork bound and after Thurles Dublin bound to catch anyone who boarded since Dublin or Cork and also to nab anyone travelling beyond their destination, thats not unreasonable

[CSL]

A fair point - I wouldn't do it at an airport. Correct.

Why not ? because I trust the Airport and airline management to open it and close it as it is supposed to be done. In addition I have departure boards above every gate telling me if its boarding, plus plenty of PAs from the announcer telling me to get a move on.

The same does not apply to IE.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

You wouldn't do it at an airport would you??

In an airport, you'd find the door physically locked in a way that passengers can't open. This alone tells you that you're not supposed to pass. You'd also find a sign stating the flight number and a status such as 'Not boarding', 'boarding now' or 'gate closed'. You'd also find at least one staff member beside the gate to help passengers. None of those things are true in Heuston in my experience and people who are afraid of missing their train will make their way to it. The only way to stop this is through communication, something IE are inept at. Maybe you're right and the guy was in the wrong but he's a) a customer and b) proof that the system isn't clear for customers.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by markpb

Maybe you're right and the guy was in the wrong but he's a) a customer and b) proof that the system isn't clear for customers.

yep, i'd agree 100% with that.

we know that there can be breakdowns in communication in Heuston. In fact, changing the Dox Matrix thing above a gate to "Now boarding" as opposed to "on time" is a very excellent idea.

[turnapin]

I find the locked gate issue to be a bit of a red herring. People only go through locked gates as a last resort. In this case it appears to be a train that’s due to depart in eight minutes, a locked gate and no information(though presumably the display said On Time, which would compound matters). If there’s a queue you don’t go through. If the gates staffed, you don’t go through. If there’s neither you’re in a difficult position, where you could either catch the train or feel like an idiot in eight minutes time.

The real issue is that IE are terrible at providing information to passengers. They are an absolute disaster at providing it on a consistent basis across the network and just to compound matters, each line and station appears to have it's own peculiarities of operation which are largely undocumented and may be interpreted differently by different employees.

I love the idea of “Now Boarding” at the gate. In truth I’m sure it would just be a matter of time before someone comes up to an unattended locked gate with a train on the platform and “Now Boarding” on the display.

[sean]

I've been on a few railways around Europe and the U.S. and I've never seen anything like that.

Most places, including the Sligo line out of Connolly, it's really very simple, you buy your ticked and show up at the platform. If the train is ready, the doors are open, you board, and there's usually well announced with clear station announcements, destination boards that work etc. Simple as that. If it's not ready, the doors are closed and you don't get on. Simple.

As for this valiadation business - again wtf?

This individual didn't know enough about the unusual and second-guessing situation that exists on some long distance services - all he wanted was a simple, relaxing journey to Cork. Nothing more, nothing less.

He apparently came to Heuston not that well informed, found a lack of customer information, an unstaffed gate that was closed (not locked?) and saw that his train was due to leave in 8 minutes.

What's more, he went out of his way to give IE a chance when he could have (and most likely will from now on) get a connecting flight to Cork.

It is reasonable to assume that a train scheduled to leave in 8 minutes is now boarding - unless you're explicitly told otherwise. Using the airport example, when was the last time a plane boarded 2 minutes before it took off? Not too often, I'd say.

IE either needs simplify boarding procedures dramatically, or make it very clear to all users - including those not familiar with it - the exact procedures to be followed.

I can certainly identify with his problem with the ticket inspections on the train and again, this is a major failure by IE. Mark may be quick to defend IEs onboard ticket checks but the way they do it simply isn't best practice. The best practice I've ever seen is on the MTA railroads out of New York City. There, the conductor uses punched slips of card paper on seat headrests to see who's entitled to travel where. If you're at a seat that doesn't have a card, the conductor asks for your ticket and will either punch your ticket (if it's valid for more trips) take it if it's only good for that journey, or sell you a ticket at a serious premium if you don't have one.

Once that's done they punch a small card, slide it into the headrest (which was designed for that purpose) and they don't bother you again unless they have a good reason. It's simple and it works.

Particularly in 1st class where someone pays a serious premium for comfort and convenience, some simple way of tracking passengers without bothering them should not be beyond the realms of possibility.

None of what goes on in IE is defensible because all of it can be done much better.

[Colm Donoghue]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

You wouldn't do it at an airport would you??

If the gate is closed, its closed, wait and form a queue, far too often the train in the platform is not the one you are looking for, imagine this guy boarded and the train vanished off to Inchicore. Equally the ticket checker may have been required to assist a passenger to board the train and had to close the gate. The gate exists to prevent passengers from boarding a train when they shouldn't, that is perfectly reasonable

This procedure occurs only in Heuston. In Connolly, Drogheda, Rush and Lusk, Donabate, Westport, Balbriggan, Arklow, Kilcoole, Dun Laoighaire you buy your ticket and go onto the platform to board or wait for your train.

All Aer Rianta's Airports follow the same proceedure. One of Irish Rail's stations follows a procedure different to most of the rest. This is different to the majority of train systems used abroad too. This difference is not communicated clearly to customers.

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

If everyone started to open the locked gates in Heuston just because they felt like it it would cause all out chaos

You are required to have your ticket validated/stamped etc if there is a gate, again you will find this is common across the rest of Europe where you must get the ticket punched or stamped before boarding and failure to do so will result in trouble. Now its inconsistent but still

Locked or closed? It is fairly reasonable to assume any unlocked door or gate in any area open to the public is going to be opened and passed through unless clear communications direct people not to.

Irish rail should lock gates if they don't want people to open them.
If you board at many stations at different times of the day you will pass a gate and no one will stamp your ticket. Don't come back and say well the rules are different if there's no one there or such. If Irish Rail can't get their act together simply and consistently that is not our fault or the fault of a first and last time customer of theirs.

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The host was correct to refuse access as the ticket wasn't stamped when it should be, however his attitude in dealing with the issue was way out of line

Ticket checks on the Cork line are conducted normally after Limerick Junction Cork bound and after Thurles Dublin bound to catch anyone who boarded since Dublin or Cork and also to nab anyone travelling beyond their destination, thats not unreasonable

A better attitude would be to stamp the customer's ticket, and inform the customer of the proper procedure for the next time the customer "lets the train take the strain"

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

This procedure occurs only in Heuston. In Connolly, Drogheda, Rush and Lusk, Donabate, Westport, Balbriggan, Arklow, Kilcoole, Dun Laoighaire you buy your ticket and go onto the platform to board or wait for your train.

You'll find that there are several other stations which have ticket checks before people enter the platform and people generally aren't let onto an empty platform, for example Limerick (platforms 1 and 2), Waterford, Galway, and Cork. It also happens some of the time at Cobh. Seems to be exclusive to terminal stations.

[MrX]

CIE companies in general have absolutely no concept of what proper signage is.

It's not too long ago that you could be faced with 4 orange MK3 trains in Heuston with no signage on them and no signs overhead! In the good old days I accidently boarded the Galway and Waterford trains by accident!!

I often wonder if they ever walk through any of the 'systems' they expect their customers to navigate.

The Cork Queue sign in Dublin Heuston is just idiotic. I don't understand it.

Boarding should work as follows:

Announcement that the train is now boarding on platform X
Ask for any passengers with special needs to come forward for priority boarding.
Get them on board.
Call the 1st class and reserved standard class ticket holders.
THEN call everyone else.

It's nuts expecting people to pay a premium for a first class /citygold ticket and then providing no clear priority boarding. Reservation should give you that too. It's pointless without it.

There should be staff around to manage the queue etc too.

There's also absolutely no consistancy.

Sometimes they help reserved passengers to their coach, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes there's food, sometimes their isn't...
The list is endless.

It's not about resources it's about poor management of a now well resourced service!

Other railways and airlines have been getting this stuff right for >100 years!!!