97% of trains "on time"

[shweeney]

Ok, so IE have been out putting up posters again claiming that 97% (or whatever) of trains are running on time.

We all know this actually means that 97% of trains adhered to the customer charter definition of on-time (I doubt even this is true - is it independently audited at all?).

However these posters are effectively advertising - can IE really change the definition of "on time" to suit their own advertising purposes? My definition of "on time" is "arriving at the time listed in the timetable".

The posters are misleading and if they are considered advertising then they should be brought to the attention of the advertising standards authority. Its bad enough that all of IE's timetables are ridiculously padded and that their charter doesn't even require them to meet those timetables, but to then use these dubious figures in gloating advertising posters is, in my opinion completely dishonest.

(and yes, my train was late last night - a lot more than 10 mins - and yes, I did spend the entire journey looking at one of these poxy posters).

[KSW]

I believe the Westport trains has over 30 mins of padding, Thats is plain stupid.. 97% Commuter trains on time take off the amount of padding used and see how smart the posters look then........... ( Were sorry to announce that the xx:xx from xxxxx is delayed by approx 10mins)

[Mark Gleeson]

First take a photo, note date time and place (or coach number), thats important

Secondly I have little doubt that the number published is accurate for the sample space it covers, of course we don't know exactly whats covered and whats not or where its measured from.

Thirdly the raw data is not verified by a third party (it is in the UK) nor is the data available to the public, it may become available shortly but it will be over a year late by the time we get it

That 97% would be from Q3 July/August/Sept which has the lowest passenger numbers and the most favourable weather

Its probably in breech of section 2.24 http://www.asai.ie/entiresection.asp...er al%20Rules of the code

I submitted a complaint to the ASAI last week and got a written acknowledgement that it was being looked into within 3 days on another rail matter, its good to deal with a professional body

Westport has at most 10-15 minutes of padding, its one of the few routes where times match the times of the 1980's

[MOH]

Are these back everywhere again?

I've been waiting for them - I'm taking it to the ASAI this time. I've got figures for the past year showing that over 95% of 200+ trains I've taken are late.

guess I'll be carrying the camera this week.

[StephenM]

Originally Posted by KeithStephen

I believe the Westport trains has over 30 mins of padding, Thats is plain stupid..

Care to point it out? The only train I remember was the 2006 Sunday 14:25 to Dublin that arrived on timetable at 18:20 but more commonly at 18:10 as far as I remember.

[KSW]

Westport has at most 10-15 minutes of padding

My Mistake.

[dowlingm]

If track works (announced) cause a 15 minute delay and IE's general slackness causes another 15 minutes, is the "official statistics delay" 15 or 30 minutes?

I'm sure passengers would say 30, Barry Kenny would say 15!

[MOH]

Going off topic, saw during the week that NS in the Netherlands give you a 50% refund for 30 minutes late, full refund after an hour, regardless of what the reason for the delay is, even if it's e.g. an accident on a level crossing.

Only exception is something like a national power failure.

[drowned_in_sound]

hi folks, can someone explain the procedure that IE drivers go through when there's a problem with a train door? many of my delays are caused by 'problems with a door' and take at least 15 minutes to address. Can drivers not lock/disable a door and fix it when it goes out of service for the night, instead of delaying everyone trying to fix it there and then, and possibly delaying trains behind it.

[Mark Gleeson]

Would be helpful to know DART/Railcar etc

There is a process, DART drivers are fairly adept at repairs, most times a good thump can fix the problem or the removal of something caught in the mechanism

Of course if the door is open its got to be closed and locked out, in some cases it is required to throw everyone out of the coach (if the door is the very front of a dead end coach or very last) the coach is off limits, so therefore its worth the five minutes to fix

The stats for the railcar fleet would tend to suggest door faults are very rare except on the 2600 set used on the 7:18 ex Drogheda and 18:15 ex Pearse, the reliability stats on that are embarrassment and someone should be shot

[MOH]

OK, I've got my pics of the Poster Of Misinformation(tm), I'm making my ASAI complaint, but I can't see anywhere I can upload my pic on the online form? Am I missing something? Or should I just mention it and they'll come back to me if they want it?

[Mark Gleeson]

Its on the second page of the form

[MOH]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Its on the second page of the form

Doh, sorry, was waiting till I got home to upload the pics.
Thanks

[MOH]

Has there been a change to the Passenger Charter, or was I just not reading it right before?

It now states (under Performance Standards):

We will measure performance at the end of each line on all timetable services except when a delay or disruption is outside our control, for example, extreme weather conditions.
......
DART / Commuter Trains
Morning Peak, arrivals in city centre between 07.00 and 09.00hrs.

90% of all trains will arrive within 10 minutes of schedule in the city centre.

Evening Peak, departures from the city centre between 17.00 and 19.00 hrs.
90% of all trains to arrive within 10 minutes of schedule at final destination.

So basically there are no commitments at all to DART/Commuter punctuality outside 0700-0900 and 1700-1900.

I thought there use to be a general 10-minute target on all DARTs/Commuters, but I can't find any mention of it now.

(and if they're measuring performance at the end of the line, how do they measure the morning rush hour in the city centre?)

[Mark Gleeson]

Well internally they measure three things (pages 13 and 14 of the document we are not meant to have)

90% to arrive Connolly up to 10am within 10 minutes Monday-Friday

90% of services due to depart Connolly between 16:00 and 19:00 to arrive destination within 10 minutes, again Monday Friday only

Overal 92% within 10 minutes at destination

[Colm Donoghue]

If people are going to complain to asai, they should consider making a complaint to the national consumer agency also http:///www.nca.ie . This is a new quango set up allegedly to help. part of the law setting this agency up makes misleading advertising illegal.

I submitted a complaint earlier this week but as this is a govt run agency I've received no acknowledgment yet. I guess I need to read the act and see if travel is covered, it's not covered by normal consumer law.

Specifically on the posters, is there small print stating ten minutes late is not late or some such weasel words?

[Mark Gleeson]

No small print

[MOH]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

If people are going to complain to asai, they should consider making a complaint to the national consumer agency also http:///www.nca.ie . This is a new quango set up allegedly to help. part of the law setting this agency up makes misleading advertising illegal.

I submitted a complaint earlier this week but as this is a govt run agency I've received no acknowledgment yet. I guess I need to read the act and see if travel is covered, it's not covered by normal consumer law.

Specifically on the posters, is there small print stating ten minutes late is not late or some such weasel words?

There's nothing at all, beyond a blanket statement that 96% of trains in the third quarter ran on time. I was surprised, thought there'd be some kind of footnote, but nothing.
(It is 96% by the way - might be worth changing the thread title?)

Complaint submitted to ASAI last night, I'll check out the NCA and see if there's anywhere it should go to.

[edit]
Found this on the NCA website:

Consumer informationBusinesses advertising- in any medium - are governed by consumer protection legislation enforced by the National Consumer Agency. This makes it an offence to make false or misleading claims about your goods or services and prices.

Regulations about misleading adverts
The European Communities (Misleading Advertising) Regulations empower the National Consumer Agency to request anyone engaging or proposing to engage in advertising that is misleading to discontinue or refrain from such advertising.

It is open to any person including the National Consumer Agency to apply to the High Court for an order prohibiting the publication or further publication of advertising which is considered to be misleading.

Might send them a mail tonight too.

[MOH]

Fair dues to the ASAI, I was starting to think they were ignoring me, but I got a letter back from them this morning.

They said that as IE use their own sites in their stations and on trains, rather than purchasing space in an advertising medium, they don't normally fall within the jurisdiction of the ASAI.

However, they did still discuss the matter with IE. IE said that quoting trains as on time when they arrive within ten minutes of schedule is in line with international standards. (Would anyone have a reference to this standard?)

However, they have agreed to indicate this in a footnote on future similar posters.

So well done to the ASAI for looking at the issue even though it was outside their remit; it remains to be seen if IE will in fact include such a footnote in future.

[Mark Gleeson]

International Standard is not 10 minutes on commuter service

The standard applied in NI and the whole UK for a suburban train eg Longford/Dundalk/Enniscourty/Portloaise/Athlone + Cork Cobh + DART is 5 minutes at destination not the wishy washy 10 minutes at Connolly

95% of trains on the Bangor line, Portadown line and Larne line will arrive no more than five minutes late,

http://www.translink.co.uk/PCharter-performance.asp

More http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=145

I could go on