letters on chivalry in paper - Page 2

Thomas Ralph · 26-10-2007, 11:42

I disagree, surely if people want to come to Ireland the least they can do is learn basic English? If you went to France without any French you'd be laughed at.

James Shields · 26-10-2007, 17:24

What a delightful attitude. Most people who come to Ireland are trying to learn English, but anything that makes things easier for them should be seen as a good thing.

There was a delightful letter in today's Metro saying that if someone chose th get pregnant, why should they have to stand. Makes you proud to be part of this caring society.

Colm Moore · 29-10-2007, 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Shields

There was a delightful letter in today's Metro saying that if someone chose th get pregnant, why should they have to stand. Makes you proud to be part of this caring society.

Not everyone chooses to become pregnant.

CSL · 30-10-2007, 09:45

Me feiner is a long and wonderful Irish tradition that's still going strong.

alek smart · 30-10-2007, 12:33

One of the interesting aspects of "Equality" campaigns and the like,especially in Ireland is how little thought tends to have been put into the concept in its entireity.

Some posters may recall a recent "Liveline" piece concerning a lady with a buggy who described how she had to leave a Bus in the City Centre when a Wheelchair user presented subsequent to her boarding.

Whilst the case recieved substantial coverage from Joe and his team it was directed far more towards this womans particular experience rather than the far more important Principle of Disabled Access and Priority.

In the Liveline case only passing reference was made to the fact of the Busroute in question NOT being a designated Low-Floor route.

There was also only pasing reference made to the Type of Buggy which was in question.
At one point it was described as not "really" being a Buggy but a somewhat larger wheeled vehicle.

The essential arguement once again drew back to the Driver and whether he/she was right/wrong in their handling of the situation.....a definite no-win situation for any staff member here.

Following on from this incident,it now appears that BAC have been in consultation with some personage called the "Equality Officer" whom,it seems has issued the company with Official guidelines which it must adhere to.

From reading other postings on Boards.ie,it now seems that BAC made a recent presentation to Dublin City Councillors wherein they outlined the company`s REVISED interpretation of Disabled Priority as a principle.

It now appears,although presently unconfirmed,that once a person with occupied buggy has occupied the Disabled Bay then they have possession of it full stop.

A Busdriver may,it appears,REQUEST the able bodied person to Fold and Stow their buggy BUT if the request is denied then the intending Wheelchair passenger must be advised that he/she cannot board and will; have to await another service (Which may repeat the same scenario).
There is,of course,no mention made of the shopping trolley situation which will now also become a group who will demand their slice of "Equality" too.

My own interpretation of the situation is now also a little clearer.
We no longer have a Priority Bay for Disabled Users on our Bus,and presumably Trains and Trams, Fleet.
What we now have is a "Wheeled Vehicle Bay" and it is the "Wheeled Vehicle" itself that is prioritized.
I now believe that Bus Atha Cliath should remove the blue Disabled Vehicle sticker from it Buses as the fleet,subsequent to the "Equality Officers" decision no longer offers ANY priority to a disabled person.

My problem is with how,yet again,we have taken a very desirable and worthwhile concept and bottled-it half way through.
Any form of Disabled Access Priority MUST be followed through with effective and simply understood powers of enforcement.

The age of Chivalry is long dead and that is FACT.

I,on my route have a regular customer who is both wheelchair bound and visually impaired.
This person works in the City Centre and boards at a particularly busy stop at particularly busy periods.

I have,on many occasions requested persons with buggy`s to remove their child and fold their buggy.
Generally,although NOT universally,this request is rapidly complied with and the disabled person accesses the disabled bay.

I have on a few occasions had some reluctance displayed along the lines of "I`m only going one stop etc etc" or "It wont fold Mr.....".

THIS is the situation where any Driver/Operator MUST have the power to ACTIVELY and POSITIVELY discriminate in favour of the Disabled Person.
With each Bus only having a single Disabled Bay,the Wheelchair bound Customer is already actively discriminated AGAINST by the system and such Positive discrimination as there WAS could only compensate in a small way for this.

However,the "Equality" Officers ruling once it enters the public domain will now sufficiently embolden the previously reluctant folder to stand-their-ground and simply refuse to comply in the full knowledge that the LAW is on their side.

Let Nobody be under any illusion here,but that this scenario WILL occur and no doubt will provide many more Liveline programmes with fodder.

The entire sordid little mess once again reveals our Administrators as little more than meddlers and half-shot merchants.
Either we have a Disabled Priority public transport service or we don`t.

There is NO room for ambiguity or if`s,but`s and maybe`s, as this really cuts to the ABC of simplicity.

For what it`s worth I would have no problem issuing the Phone Number of our "Equality Officer" to ANY Wheelchair customer whom I had to refuse in favour of an able bodied Buggy pusher in order that the Officer could fully expand on their view of what "EQUALITY" actually means....

ThomasJ · 30-10-2007, 12:43

Fair point Alec, I hope you're wrong though about the chivalry being long dead point. A trend can make a difference. For example if someone is on a bus and blesses themself as a bus passes a church people do see what they are doing and follow suit. The same can be said about chivalry, if someone is witnessed offering a seat to an elderly lady people will think twice.

One of the things that is getting to me lately is that people are bringing their babies upstairs, seated etc. and are leaving the buggie in the wheelchair bay unfolded. That gets to me

losexpectation · 26-11-2007, 07:58

im back and im serious, i remember this wan gave me dirty look on crowded bus when I sat down near the front of the bus, turned out the older person she wanted for my seat was doing 'the getting up three stops before they needed to thing', so I stood up like a chump for one sector until I could see nobody was talking the seat, I gave yerwan right dirty look back and sat down.

neither will i do the faux civil thing of argueing, over the giving of something,

"do you want this seat"

'No'

'okay' I sit down again.

'no are you sure'!? no 'ah go on go on! go on....'

politness nazi I tell ya :P

losexpectation · 26-11-2007, 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulM

Hmmm, you're saying it is difficult for a young person to realize it is polite to offer their seat to an elderly / disabled person? You sound charming.

well if you sitting their minding your own business, perhaps facing the other way, and then some busybody taps you on the shoulder scolds you for being so rude as to not even offer your seat to a person you never saw, then yes it very hard to do that, I don't spend my time on trains and buses looking around for the next tired person.

James Shields · 26-11-2007, 09:09

It's a tricky one, because I've seen people get offended at being offered a seat, which is a sure way of making sure a person doesn't offer again.

Actually, there was a cartoon about it in Metro recently.

Colm Moore · 26-11-2007, 15:07

Sometimes, you have to be careful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebookofbob

Was on the dart this morning & thought I was in the middle of a naked camera sketch.. Was reading my book & didn't notice ya auld one get on.. but the guy next to me did & immediately gave up his seat..
It's like a library on there in the mornings.. so quiet.. and ya one is yellin at me as she's a little hard at hearing ( and has an ipod ) .. giving about about drivers.. saying she goes swimming, only needs 4 hours sleep.. I was brickin it myself to what was coming next.. people on the carriage started choking up , one lad burst out laughing.. I was there trying to keep myself together..I was the morning's entertainment and I couldnt just ignore her.. anyway...
She continued about going to marks & spencer to get her free box of chocolates..starting showing me all these credit cards, talking about stocks, shares and she offered that I could have one of her chocolates.. meanwhile I was thinking this just can't be happening to me.. why didn't I notice her getting on , give up my seat & let the other guy have this.
So eventually after the life story.. an offer of a lift to work and some chocolates,.. I got off.. walked up the plaform imid smiles from everyone.. Now I'd just like to crawl under a rock for the day..

no harm in her though.. but the embarrassment..

So lads & ladies.. please be kind to old ladies on dart and give up your seat or you too could be the laughing stock of Dublin!!!!!!

Mark Gleeson · 26-11-2007, 15:12

Classic case on the Luas this afternoon, guy gives up his seat seeing a group of elderly ladies boarding, two got seats, the third then says she wants to stand despite the fact the decent chap had stood up and moved out of his seat, after some encouragement she sits

And before anyone asks I stood for the entire trip

30-10-2007, 12:43	#26
ThomasJ Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Clonsilla Posts: 2,812	Fair point Alec, I hope you're wrong though about the chivalry being long dead point. A trend can make a difference. For example if someone is on a bus and blesses themself as a bus passes a church people do see what they are doing and follow suit. The same can be said about chivalry, if someone is witnessed offering a seat to an elderly lady people will think twice. One of the things that is getting to me lately is that people are bringing their babies upstairs, seated etc. and are leaving the buggie in the wheelchair bay unfolded. That gets to me Last edited by ThomasJ : 30-10-2007 at 12:46.

26-11-2007, 15:12	#31
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Classic case on the Luas this afternoon, guy gives up his seat seeing a group of elderly ladies boarding, two got seats, the third then says she wants to stand despite the fact the decent chap had stood up and moved out of his seat, after some encouragement she sits And before anyone asks I stood for the entire trip __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

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26-10-2007, 11:42	#21
Thomas Ralph IT Officer Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greenwich, London Posts: 1,860	I disagree, surely if people want to come to Ireland the least they can do is learn basic English? If you went to France without any French you'd be laughed at.

26-10-2007, 17:24	#22
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	What a delightful attitude. Most people who come to Ireland are trying to learn English, but anything that makes things easier for them should be seen as a good thing. There was a delightful letter in today's Metro saying that if someone chose th get pregnant, why should they have to stand. Makes you proud to be part of this caring society.

30-10-2007, 09:45	#24
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	Me feiner is a long and wonderful Irish tradition that's still going strong.

30-10-2007, 12:33	#25
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	One of the interesting aspects of "Equality" campaigns and the like,especially in Ireland is how little thought tends to have been put into the concept in its entireity. Some posters may recall a recent "Liveline" piece concerning a lady with a buggy who described how she had to leave a Bus in the City Centre when a Wheelchair user presented subsequent to her boarding. Whilst the case recieved substantial coverage from Joe and his team it was directed far more towards this womans particular experience rather than the far more important Principle of Disabled Access and Priority. In the Liveline case only passing reference was made to the fact of the Busroute in question NOT being a designated Low-Floor route. There was also only pasing reference made to the Type of Buggy which was in question. At one point it was described as not "really" being a Buggy but a somewhat larger wheeled vehicle. The essential arguement once again drew back to the Driver and whether he/she was right/wrong in their handling of the situation.....a definite no-win situation for any staff member here. Following on from this incident,it now appears that BAC have been in consultation with some personage called the "Equality Officer" whom,it seems has issued the company with Official guidelines which it must adhere to. From reading other postings on Boards.ie,it now seems that BAC made a recent presentation to Dublin City Councillors wherein they outlined the company`s REVISED interpretation of Disabled Priority as a principle. It now appears,although presently unconfirmed,that once a person with occupied buggy has occupied the Disabled Bay then they have possession of it full stop. A Busdriver may,it appears,REQUEST the able bodied person to Fold and Stow their buggy BUT if the request is denied then the intending Wheelchair passenger must be advised that he/she cannot board and will; have to await another service (Which may repeat the same scenario). There is,of course,no mention made of the shopping trolley situation which will now also become a group who will demand their slice of "Equality" too. My own interpretation of the situation is now also a little clearer. We no longer have a Priority Bay for Disabled Users on our Bus,and presumably Trains and Trams, Fleet. What we now have is a "Wheeled Vehicle Bay" and it is the "Wheeled Vehicle" itself that is prioritized. I now believe that Bus Atha Cliath should remove the blue Disabled Vehicle sticker from it Buses as the fleet,subsequent to the "Equality Officers" decision no longer offers ANY priority to a disabled person. My problem is with how,yet again,we have taken a very desirable and worthwhile concept and bottled-it half way through. Any form of Disabled Access Priority MUST be followed through with effective and simply understood powers of enforcement. The age of Chivalry is long dead and that is FACT. I,on my route have a regular customer who is both wheelchair bound and visually impaired. This person works in the City Centre and boards at a particularly busy stop at particularly busy periods. I have,on many occasions requested persons with buggy`s to remove their child and fold their buggy. Generally,although NOT universally,this request is rapidly complied with and the disabled person accesses the disabled bay. I have on a few occasions had some reluctance displayed along the lines of "I`m only going one stop etc etc" or "It wont fold Mr.....". THIS is the situation where any Driver/Operator MUST have the power to ACTIVELY and POSITIVELY discriminate in favour of the Disabled Person. With each Bus only having a single Disabled Bay,the Wheelchair bound Customer is already actively discriminated AGAINST by the system and such Positive discrimination as there WAS could only compensate in a small way for this. However,the "Equality" Officers ruling once it enters the public domain will now sufficiently embolden the previously reluctant folder to stand-their-ground and simply refuse to comply in the full knowledge that the LAW is on their side. Let Nobody be under any illusion here,but that this scenario WILL occur and no doubt will provide many more Liveline programmes with fodder. The entire sordid little mess once again reveals our Administrators as little more than meddlers and half-shot merchants. Either we have a Disabled Priority public transport service or we don`t. There is NO room for ambiguity or if`s,but`s and maybe`s, as this really cuts to the ABC of simplicity. For what it`s worth I would have no problem issuing the Phone Number of our "Equality Officer" to ANY Wheelchair customer whom I had to refuse in favour of an able bodied Buggy pusher in order that the Officer could fully expand on their view of what "EQUALITY" actually means....

26-11-2007, 07:58	#27
losexpectation Regular Poster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 54	im back and im serious, i remember this wan gave me dirty look on crowded bus when I sat down near the front of the bus, turned out the older person she wanted for my seat was doing 'the getting up three stops before they needed to thing', so I stood up like a chump for one sector until I could see nobody was talking the seat, I gave yerwan right dirty look back and sat down. neither will i do the faux civil thing of argueing, over the giving of something, "do you want this seat" 'No' 'okay' I sit down again. 'no are you sure'!? no 'ah go on go on! go on....' politness nazi I tell ya :P

26-11-2007, 09:09	#29
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	It's a tricky one, because I've seen people get offended at being offered a seat, which is a sure way of making sure a person doesn't offer again. Actually, there was a cartoon about it in Metro recently.