Going the wrong way to get to where you are going

[Mark Gleeson]

As many will know there are times when you end up passing through your station non stop to get a connection back owing to the large gaps in the timetable

The Platform 11 position on this has always been if it is in the timetable planner, it is a legitimate journey and no extra fare is due, if it is in the journey planner

Eg
10:00 Connolly Belfast for Donabate change Drogheda (Sunday)
18:40 Heuston Thurles for Monestervin change Portarlington

YOU SHOULD NOT PAY ANY EXCESS FARE if challenged you are correct though IE staff will claim you are not. I made a trip Sallins Dublin via Newbridge before Xmas but there was no check enroute

We would be very interested in hearing from anyone who has met with resistance while making such a journey

[Thomas J Stamp]

Let me point out the following:

During discussions with IE I was told that under the spoke and hub system you caould get a train from Dublin to Templemore Via Thurles - get off and come back.

Also, I was told that you can go from Templemore to Thurles to go to Dublin!

There may is an issue in that the on-line ticketing service allows breaches of the terms of carraige of sale.

[Mark Gleeson]

We can't go into details on this but a passenger tried a legitimate journey in such a way and was forced to pay the excess for the last leg of the trip. We very much doubt it to be a isolated incident

I've done this myself several times and apart from some amused ticket checkers made it

Bear in mind that staff have no right to waive the rules so either I'm right or wrong the policy can't vary on a specific route or train

[seamus kilcock]

Re Travelling 'backwards' getting to destination and charge for same.
Example:
Charleville Dep 1258; Mallow Arr 1315;
Mallow Dep 1352; Heuston ARR 1620.
Seat Reservation Planner charge 43 Euro. ('backwards' journey).

Charlveille Dep 1507 direct Heuston Arr 1715.
Seat Reservation Planner charge 43 Euro.

The above are FACTS according to the IR website, so it must be true!!!

So long as the IR website shows the same fare for a journey whether it's a 'backwards' one or not the passenger is NOT required to pay anymore even if challanged by the checker.
It's time for IE management to instruct its checkers of this FACT.

[Mark Gleeson]

Just make sure you have a printout of the journey planner page

The journey planner system will always quote the same fare regardless of the route taken since it will only show the permissible routes

[seamus kilcock]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Just make sure you have a printout of the journey planner page

The journey planner system will always quote the same fare regardless of the route taken since it will only show the permissible routes

'permissible routes' = PERMISSIBLE FARE.
The 'customer is always right'.

[Mark Gleeson]

Well it gets complex Connolly Waterford Rosslare is not the same as Connolly Rosslare (there was a time you could do it) since there are promotional fares

The online system does not issue promotional fares correctly, IE will claim it does but from a passenger point of view its not consistent

The key point of this thread is to get to where you are going faster by exploiting the timetable and remaining legal at all times

If you meet a ignorant staff member who makes trouble let us know.

[packetswitch]

Also remember that same-day break of journey is permitted under the IÉ conditions of carriage, for Intercity journeys (not Commuter/DART). So it is perfectly acceptable to buy Dublin-Cork, get off at Thurles and get a later train Thurles-Cork.

This is OK on a single journey and in both directions of a return.

I've never had problems in doing this (it doesn't happen that often) but few people I've mentioned it to are aware that it is possible without formality, and English passengers tend to assume it's not (cause a lot of UK tickets specify no break of journey or break on return trip only).

[Mark Gleeson]

That indeed is in the rule book

Read up on it http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/legal.php

Question Cork Bray, can I break my journey in Blackrock it would appear you can since you have a intercity ticket

Point to note is the conditions of carriage are conditions, there are not law so it would be interesting to see how IE could apply them against you when they contradict SI 109 and the Rail Safety Act 2005 sec 132

[packetswitch]

They're incorporated in the contract so failure to honour on their part is a problem. Obviously the conditions have a lot of get-outs for them but them refusing to obey the rules that you agreed to in buying the ticket is a problem. The bye-laws (statutory instrument) only deal with offences etc by passengers, they don't set up a separate statutory framework for disputes between railway and passenger. So AFAIK it's just contract law that you'd be dealing with in that stage. As well as the normal range of tort law damages options depending on how mean they are to you.

Problem with doubling back is that I can't find it in the conditions. Not like the British system where you have a Routeing Guide that weighs more than I do, dealing with the 589305029385 possible permitted routes.

IANA(A)L. (I Am Not An (Actual) Lawyer)

[packetswitch]

Hierarchy of course being the Act, the SIs and then the conditions. There are numerous British textbooks on 'railway law' that would have an awful lot more detail.

(all of the above being subject to the Constitution etc)

[Mark Gleeson]

Well the view I've taken is as follows

If the online journey planner offers the journey which requires a double back, Irish Rail either correctly or through there own negligence have offered me a journey and by purchase of a ticket and by presenting myself to board that train I have accepted

The official IE line is tickets are valid by the most direct route so does that mean

1) The shortest route (Dublin Limerick via Nenagh is 3 miles shorter than the Junction)
2) The fastest route and clearly there are many times where double back is faster than waiting around

In the good days before BR was broken up it was the classic any reasonable route unless endorsed otherwise

[packetswitch]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Well the view I've taken is as follows

If the online journey planner offers the journey which requires a double back, Irish Rail either correctly or through there own negligence have offered me a journey and by purchase of a ticket and by presenting myself to board that train I have accepted

This one is easy, they supplied specific and precise information, you made an offer, they accepted the offer and valid contract exists.

The official IE line is tickets are valid by the most direct route so does that mean

1) The shortest route (Dublin Limerick via Nenagh is 3 miles shorter than the Junction)
2) The fastest route and clearly there are many times where double back is faster than waiting around

UK rule is one of three if not otherwise restricted (ie Any Permitted):

a) anything station to station (direct)
b) the 'shortest' (3 mile margin of error)
c) anything in the horrendously complicated Routeing Guide

But as we have no RG we are left to guess.

[CSL]

Soon you will see a disclaimer like you do on Dell and HP websites "Prices offered may not be correct, in fact whatever you are charged is correct"

[Mark Gleeson]

It would be illegal to offer a price and then debit a different amount online, wonder what the DoT will say if IE jack up prices without approval?

Exploit the options to get home thats what its all about

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

That indeed is in the rule book

Read up on it http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/legal.php

The Luas link on that page is broken.

Question Cork Bray, can I break my journey in Blackrock it would appear you can since you have a intercity ticket

Is Blackrock an Intercity station? Can you claim you got a bus between the two? (I realise the difference between the legal situation and practicality)

Is doubling back compatible with breaks in journeys?

Originally Posted by CSL

Soon you will see a disclaimer like you do on Dell and HP websites "Prices offered may not be correct, in fact whatever you are charged is correct"

Aren't Dell, etc. offers subject to the confirmation of order e-mail?

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Well the view I've taken is as follows

If the online journey planner offers the journey which requires a double back, Irish Rail either correctly or through there own negligence have offered me a journey and by purchase of a ticket and by presenting myself to board that train I have accepted

How will a judge interpret party A entering into a contract knowing that party B has made a mistake?

[sean]

You can't break an IC journey on the DART/Suburban network - I tried it once from Longford to Leixlip Louisa and on to Connolly, had to buy short haul ticket to get to Connolly.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Victor

The Luas link on that page is broken.

They changed their site

Is Blackrock an Intercity station? Can you claim you got a bus between the two? (I realise the difference between the legal situation and practicality)

No its not, but the can't break journey rule only applies to journeys between two suburban stations

How will a judge interpret party A entering into a contract knowing that party B has made a mistake?

There is one such journey which IE actually well know about and permit on a daily basis. Secondly I've done such a journey and not been stopped by the ticket checker and best of all, the DB website will offer the same double back journeys so they can't blame a software glitch. If I was a tourist would I know?

We have a journey in mind and well we have no hesitation in challenging Irish Rail to stop us from making it despite having a valid ticket for travel. We will give the date and time

[haddockman]

Sorry to dig up a very old thread.

There used to be a way to get to Ballybrophy from Dublin via Thurles which was in the online planner until a few months ago. They now seem to have been removed.

When these were in the planner I did do the journey a few times with mixed results. In the end I was let on my way but most inspectors were not convinced that such journeys were legal.

Has there been any changes recently to the most direct rule?

[Colm Moore]

I'm not aware of any changes.

Cork-Hazelhatch is still routing via Heuston for many trips.

A few things may have happened:
* the timetable changes have reduced the connection time below what is practical / reasonable. Note that intermediate times can be quite tight, as they put the padding at the end of the timing.
* they have increased the connection time setting in the journey planner.

The connection time is there to allow for trains being late and to get from one platform to another (more important in the likes of Connolly than Thurles).