Price Hike

[Philly]

CIE seek rise in bus and train fares
12/11/2006 - 10:16:23

Ticket price hikes could be on the way for commuters.

There are reports this morning that CIE is seeking a 9% increase in fares for bus and train users.

This morning's papers claim that CIE has submitted the price increase request to the Department of Transport, which will rule on it shortly.

The company wants a 6% rise in ticket costs, and a separate 3% increase as a fuel levy.

It contends that the hikes are needed to cover its increasing fuel bill - which is understood to have risen by €10m since 2003.

It also claims that it needs the increased revenue to meet additional wage costs agreed under social partnership.

If successful CIE's request would mean an extra five euro added onto a Dublin to Cork train journey, bringing the fare up to about €64, and an extra 15 cent added onto the average Dublin bus trip.

Taken from breakingnews.ie

[IHIR]

P11 committee, I hope you are going to go all out on this one, this deserves a huge and robust response - if anything was to galvanise you apart from the diabolical service and overcrowding then this should, its an absolute scandal and disgrace. I guarantee if anyone with some vague hint of financial background went in there, the money that could be saved would be amazing - instead of a fare hike they should send in a team from the auditor general for a year and see what they come up with

[Mark Gleeson]

Trust me we have been gathering evidence at quite considerable expense its 110+ pages of documentation at this stage

I have a list of why IE don't deserve a increase, it has 21 items on it all of which are verifiable,

If anyone has any thoughts please let us know, post it here problem it has to be verifiable

[Derek Wheeler]

Platform 11 are making a submission to the Minister for Transport outlining our reasons for objecting to the proposed price increase.

[Donal Quinn]

other rail systems get a guaranteed price increase every year

ok it's not 9% but surely they need something - wage increases alone are 3%

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Donalq

other rail systems get a guaranteed price increase every year

ok it's not 9% but surely they need something - wage increases alone are 3%

In all fairness Donal, they have to at least go some way towards earning it. Currently they don't.

[IHIR]

Originally Posted by Donalq

other rail systems get a guaranteed price increase every year

ok it's not 9% but surely they need something - wage increases alone are 3%

so why didnt they ask for 3% for wages? B kenny was on matt cooper last night and sidestepped why they needed 9% by rabbiting on about fuel and wages. He even said they had hedged for their fuel costs before and it had saved a fortune. So why didnt they just do it again, there must be someone in a rail strategy department somewhere that has read something about an energy crisi.

I feel strongly, if the govt (laugh laugh!) send any financial team in there, they will come up with savings.

[MrX]

Why aren't IE using Biodiesel for all of their modern fleet at this stage anyway?!
They're big enough to get decent economies of scale and it would get them away from fluctuating oil prices.

[2Funki4Wheelz]

Originally Posted by IHIR

He even said they had hedged for their fuel costs before and it had saved a fortune. So why didnt they just do it again, there must be someone in a rail strategy department somewhere that has read something about an energy crisi.

I feel strongly, if the govt (laugh laugh!) send any financial team in there, they will come up with savings.

We heard the fuel hedging argument from Myles McHugh at a local meeting. (It appeared they still hedge this) He was challenged that since the fuel prices had gone back down how could that be a reason for increase, and he said because of hedging they were still carrying the burden of the higher cost from earlier in the year. So then he was challenged that a some point they must have bought low and then then cost rose - where did the benefit from this go, there's always increases?. Unsurprisingly, no answer to that one.

[Mark Gleeson]

I remember a nasty arguement I had about this with IE at a public meeting

Every year you ask for close to 10% increase, you well know you will get less than 5%, you return a surplus regardless so you never needed the 10%

I now have a list of 25 reasons why IE don't deserve an increase, if you look at the accounts you will find IE spent less on fuel in 2005 than in 2004 which is interesting, IE dont pay duty and this morning the cheapest petrol in Dublin was under €1 ie back to where it was having fallen 10%+ in price in the last few months. Don't forget IE signed a new deal for the DART electrical supply

The service is not up to scratch and the company is overstaffed, there is a serious staff attitude and motivation problem. Management don't seem to have a clue about what is going on out on the ground. The vast bulk of the problems are fixable in a matter of months if the will was there

Despite the claims IE is very well subsidised, 180 odd million a year from the goverment plus over 1.3 billion over the last 8 years in capital investment. Totoal operational costs in 2005 where 403 million, or 45% subsidy which is high by European standards

[Mark]

They'll get their 3.7 or whatever. Pity tho, cos they dont deserve it. I heard Barry Kenny on the radio and he really did come across to me as a fool.

[Oisin88]

Just calculated the prices of the annual Heuston-Tullamore ticket for the years 2003 to 2006. The increase is in the third column:

2003 €1,820.00
2004 €2,000.00 9.9%
2005 €2,180.00 9.0%
2006 €2,270.00 4.1%

That's a 24.7% increase in 4 years. How does that compare with inflation?

[Mark Gleeson]

Annual, monthly, weekly are not controlled by the DoT

[Oisin88]

So I can be guaranteed a 9% increase next year then?

I wonder did Irish rail staff get benhmarking and if so are they proving that they have increased productivity/flexibility?

[dowlingm]

The issue shouldn't be a fare hike but a revenue hike to meet costs. IE should have to account for what proportions of their revenues come from fares, from non-fare income such as rents and food and advertising and from government subvention.

Fares should only rise to keep pace with an agreed % of revenues, so that if the punter is paying 6% more so is govt, so is the Eason's newsagent etc. If pay increases are part of government agreements then the govt should be sensitive to it. These reviews should be mandatory on an annual basis rather than "saving up" fare hikes which are then proposed at massive levels every 4-5 years.

Ideally the level of non-fare income should be targeted to reduce the burden on the State and the passenger not simply with rent hikes by making all IE stations commercially friendly with provision of commercial space where feasible so that stations with low traffic help pull their weight by renting office space or something else.

In Toronto, cost recovery (excluding subvention) is 80%+ which is considered extremely high.

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

Speaking as an ex-communist now free market wall-street macho sonofagit Solicitor-type that's rubbish. Do you really want to pay the economic cost of your ticket to Sligo? Thought not.

Of course not, but if CIE provided a decent service I would. I have no issue with paying top dollar for a top quality service. Irish Rail does not even provide an adequet service on most of their rail routes. I would wager that most CIE/IE fare on every rail route across all their bus and rail services when measured about the European benchmark is overpriced in terms of actual service provision.

If we are going to put major infrastructural money into rail transport then target the investment were it'll result in the most passengers and rail transport looks like a winner. Currently this is Dublin and other cities. Once a communiting culture dependent on rail transport arises from this, then all future investment in rail is safeguarded. Bringing this somewhat back on topic would be upgrading Pearse/GCD and forgetting about reopening Ardrahan.

Half the reason we have still have economists in this country arguing for roads over rail spending is because they know loads of it will be wasted on politicans in rural Ireland and their re-election campaigns and well as the massive workforce within IE who are surplus to requirements.

I drive mostly these days as the rolling stock on the Sligo line is uncomfortable and most of the toilets are constantly broken. I'll wait until the new rolling stock arrives and I'll start using the train again. My selfish consumerist needs outweigh any guilt concerning my carbon footprint.

Back to the topic at hand, upgrade Pearse/GCD and future proof what we already have. It's not rocket science.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Seriously thinking about opening a thread on the topic of the subsidisation issue.

Well, we're looking at a fares increase, there's a very interesting post in the Newbridge thread which could debunk the fuel price rationale for it, I suppose (though this theroy is being plucked from my ass admittadly) that whatever Partnership pay rises flow through IE have to be paid for by a fares increase in reality.

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail are not accountable for the service so no matter how bad it gets there is no comeback

Well despite IE's best efforts to prevent someone seeing it the Department of Transport are complict in this as well

The parties to this Memorandum of Understanding do not intend any part of this Memorandum to have any contractual status of any kind.

Irish Rail recieve a 45% subsidy so its not that they are underfunded

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

I suppose (though this theroy is being plucked from my ass admittadly) that whatever Partnership pay rises flow through IE have to be paid for by a fares increase in reality.

It's important this is highlighted. The fact that there are dozens of former railfreight staff sitting in unused railfreight depots around the country collecting their partnership pay raises for drinking tea all day should be a nation scandal. CIE management are passing the cost of their failed legacy onto their passengers as usual.

My apology for being sensationally off topic as usual, but I am off now and it won't happen again I promise.

[Thomas J Stamp]

If only i could edit and merge threads........................

Paul, where are you?