letters on chivalry in paper
 

In the letters section of one of this mornings freebie papers comment was made to the fact that a woman on cruches with a plaster cast on her foot was standing on a RUSH hour DART and the only person to offer her a seat was an elderly lady.

I have been standing on a DART/commuter train a couple of times and an elderly man/woman/even couple would be standing beside me in crushloads. they may have said no but the fact that no came up and asked them was not a good thing. its as if those stickers that ask passengers to give up a seat for an elderly/disabled person is not worth the paper its on. if people are not going to bother why bother to stick up those stickers.

its the same with buses i still happens but not as much as it used to. iwas actually on a bus (standing) where an elderly woman was standing and the bus came to a halt and she went forward and hit her head off a sideboard. she got a seat then.

What do you think? are people beginning to think less and less of people that need seats more?

I think it's very much a cultural thing. See, I am from Poland but grew up in Germany. Whenever I am in Poland, *everybody* around me on a tram or bus will offer their seat to an elderly person. Naturally, so do I. When I am back in Germany, however, it would feel really awkward to be the one guy offering his seat to an older person. It's simply not something people do. (I know that's bad alright, but the peer pressure if you want to call it that makes me do the same as everyone else.)

I guess it's similar in Ireland: It's just not in the culture. And it will take a lot of time to become habitual for young people.

Undo: giving seats to the elderly and ladies (and not just elderly ladies!) was once part of our culture: that's why these comments were made in the first place. Ireland has become brash and ill-mannered - see remarks recently by the German ambassador.

What may have helped to kill off giving up one's seat was the attitude of 1970s vintage feminists ("Don't patronise me"). I hope that Polish gallantry will conunter this nastiness.

IEs promotion of this particular act of kindness is abysmal. A mere sticker is not enough. P11 drew up the bones of a campaign, but initial reaction from IE was cool. But we are rolling it out again.

Ideally it should be poster, radio and TV driven. Thats what changes a culture.

Perhaps we should be leading by example. I will happily give my seat up when an elderly or obviously pregnant person gets on, but perhaps I should be making a point of not sitting when other people are standing.

I think it looks bad when CIE staff (from any of their companies) in uniform sit on a crowded train and leave others standing. They may be perfectly entitled to a seat, but choosing not to take it would send a powerful that they as individuals as was as a company put the customer first.

If P11 launch a "give up your seat" campaign, it should certainly start from committee members (and any other members who wish to join us) giving up our seats.

Please note that this is just my opinion, and I have not discussed this with any other committee member.

Cracking idea James.

As previous posters have pointed out the very act of trying to give up your seat can be a frustrating experience.

I've sat on the floor for 2 hours after giving up my seat in the past and I don't annoy the person in my reserved seat if they are deserving.

Maybe we should start taping the shoulder of senior IE managers taking seats while others stand, yes we have all your mug shots :D

I hate these people who write these letters if your that desperate for seat ask! otherwise shut up, I call them rudeness nazis, who end up being more hostile then the people who didn't do what they had no idea they were doing.

That's quality trolling there... I'm impressed :rolleyes:

Hmmm, you're saying it is difficult for a young person to realize it is polite to offer their seat to an elderly / disabled person? You sound charming.

DON'T FEED THE TROLL !

It might be an idea to look at if it is atall possible to translate these messages into different languages. Ireland is becoming more of a multicultural and multinational country. Companies are beginning to cater more for other nationalities such as Poles. Even with the amount of tourists from lets say, Spain use the DART and trains on a daily basis. Just an idea.

Ive been following this thread and all I'll say is this.

This particular issue has been discussed by the membership in the members section and by the committee.

Membership discussion here http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=1077

For the benefit of non members, below is a simple design idea we prepared over a year ago,based on an idea from Louise, when she was a committee member. I still think its probably one of the most high profile campaigns we could run. The plan was to prepare a more polished submission, submit it to IE and issue it to the media. The Gerry Ryan show talks about this issue at least 3 times a year.

Attachment 626

You'll note from the simple designs that we had hoped that IE would cooperate on the initiative with us. That is still an option.

Heres another version.

Attachment 627

Why not change that text to "if you are pregnant or feeling week" and then include in the picture both pregnant and old people? When asking people to give up seats to those who need them more, it is good to point out the different groups this applies to.

Louise also tackled other members of society. Obviously these are just rough ideas and designs. Some great feedback was received from members. The concensus was for one general message, but I'd be interested in hearing what people think about specific messages as part of an over all campaign.

Attachment 628

A great idea. Ties in with the concensus that was felt before. Overall we have to move away from tatty little signs and huge campaigns about fare evasion and start to concentrate on customer driven issues. That is the area that IE fall down on. Remember that this kind of idea can be extended to refund forms for late trains and in fact any issue from the customer charter. What Im trying to generate here is a case of what is passenger driven as opposed to bye law driven. Rail users ireland is meant to be about that. And the sooner the better.

a very effective image and would drive the message across i think. looks good!! best of luck!!

reminds me that i need to get the finger out and become a member!

It might be an idea to look at if it is atall possible to translate these messages into different languages. Ireland is becoming more of a multicultural and multinational country. Companies are beginning to cater more for other nationalities such as Poles. Even with the amount of tourists from lets say, Spain use the DART and trains on a daily basis. Just an idea.

Good thinking. Noted.

I disagree, surely if people want to come to Ireland the least they can do is learn basic English? If you went to France without any French you'd be laughed at.

What a delightful attitude. Most people who come to Ireland are trying to learn English, but anything that makes things easier for them should be seen as a good thing.

There was a delightful letter in today's Metro saying that if someone chose th get pregnant, why should they have to stand. Makes you proud to be part of this caring society.

Not everyone chooses to become pregnant. :rolleyes:

Me feiner is a long and wonderful Irish tradition that's still going strong.

One of the interesting aspects of "Equality" campaigns and the like,especially in Ireland is how little thought tends to have been put into the concept in its entireity.

Some posters may recall a recent "Liveline" piece concerning a lady with a buggy who described how she had to leave a Bus in the City Centre when a Wheelchair user presented subsequent to her boarding.

Whilst the case recieved substantial coverage from Joe and his team it was directed far more towards this womans particular experience rather than the far more important Principle of Disabled Access and Priority.

In the Liveline case only passing reference was made to the fact of the Busroute in question NOT being a designated Low-Floor route.

There was also only pasing reference made to the Type of Buggy which was in question.
At one point it was described as not "really" being a Buggy but a somewhat larger wheeled vehicle.

The essential arguement once again drew back to the Driver and whether he/she was right/wrong in their handling of the situation.....a definite no-win situation for any staff member here.

Following on from this incident,it now appears that BAC have been in consultation with some personage called the "Equality Officer" whom,it seems has issued the company with Official guidelines which it must adhere to.

From reading other postings on Boards.ie,it now seems that BAC made a recent presentation to Dublin City Councillors wherein they outlined the company`s REVISED interpretation of Disabled Priority as a principle.

It now appears,although presently unconfirmed,that once a person with occupied buggy has occupied the Disabled Bay then they have possession of it full stop.

A Busdriver may,it appears,REQUEST the able bodied person to Fold and Stow their buggy BUT if the request is denied then the intending Wheelchair passenger must be advised that he/she cannot board and will; have to await another service (Which may repeat the same scenario).
There is,of course,no mention made of the shopping trolley situation which will now also become a group who will demand their slice of "Equality" too. :p

My own interpretation of the situation is now also a little clearer.
We no longer have a Priority Bay for Disabled Users on our Bus,and presumably Trains and Trams, Fleet.
What we now have is a "Wheeled Vehicle Bay" and it is the "Wheeled Vehicle" itself that is prioritized.
I now believe that Bus Atha Cliath should remove the blue Disabled Vehicle sticker from it Buses as the fleet,subsequent to the "Equality Officers" decision no longer offers ANY priority to a disabled person.

My problem is with how,yet again,we have taken a very desirable and worthwhile concept and bottled-it half way through.
Any form of Disabled Access Priority MUST be followed through with effective and simply understood powers of enforcement.

The age of Chivalry is long dead and that is FACT.

I,on my route have a regular customer who is both wheelchair bound and visually impaired.
This person works in the City Centre and boards at a particularly busy stop at particularly busy periods.

I have,on many occasions requested persons with buggy`s to remove their child and fold their buggy.
Generally,although NOT universally,this request is rapidly complied with and the disabled person accesses the disabled bay.

I have on a few occasions had some reluctance displayed along the lines of "I`m only going one stop etc etc" or "It wont fold Mr.....".

THIS is the situation where any Driver/Operator MUST have the power to ACTIVELY and POSITIVELY discriminate in favour of the Disabled Person.
With each Bus only having a single Disabled Bay,the Wheelchair bound Customer is already actively discriminated AGAINST by the system and such Positive discrimination as there WAS could only compensate in a small way for this.

However,the "Equality" Officers ruling once it enters the public domain will now sufficiently embolden the previously reluctant folder to stand-their-ground and simply refuse to comply in the full knowledge that the LAW is on their side.

Let Nobody be under any illusion here,but that this scenario WILL occur and no doubt will provide many more Liveline programmes with fodder.

The entire sordid little mess once again reveals our Administrators as little more than meddlers and half-shot merchants.
Either we have a Disabled Priority public transport service or we don`t.

There is NO room for ambiguity or if`s,but`s and maybe`s, as this really cuts to the ABC of simplicity.

For what it`s worth I would have no problem issuing the Phone Number of our "Equality Officer" to ANY Wheelchair customer whom I had to refuse in favour of an able bodied Buggy pusher in order that the Officer could fully expand on their view of what "EQUALITY" actually means.... :confused:

Fair point Alec, I hope you're wrong though about the chivalry being long dead point. A trend can make a difference. For example if someone is on a bus and blesses themself as a bus passes a church people do see what they are doing and follow suit. The same can be said about chivalry, if someone is witnessed offering a seat to an elderly lady people will think twice.

One of the things that is getting to me lately is that people are bringing their babies upstairs, seated etc. and are leaving the buggie in the wheelchair bay unfolded. That gets to me :mad:

im back and im serious, i remember this wan gave me dirty look on crowded bus when I sat down near the front of the bus, turned out the older person she wanted for my seat was doing 'the getting up three stops before they needed to thing', so I stood up like a chump for one sector until I could see nobody was talking the seat, I gave yerwan right dirty look back and sat down.

neither will i do the faux civil thing of argueing, over the giving of something,

"do you want this seat"

'No'

'okay' I sit down again.

'no are you sure'!? no 'ah go on go on! go on....'

politness nazi I tell ya :P

well if you sitting their minding your own business, perhaps facing the other way, and then some busybody taps you on the shoulder scolds you for being so rude as to not even offer your seat to a person you never saw, then yes it very hard to do that, I don't spend my time on trains and buses looking around for the next tired person.

It's a tricky one, because I've seen people get offended at being offered a seat, which is a sure way of making sure a person doesn't offer again.

Actually, there was a cartoon about it in Metro recently.

Sometimes, you have to be careful.

Classic case on the Luas this afternoon, guy gives up his seat seeing a group of elderly ladies boarding, two got seats, the third then says she wants to stand despite the fact the decent chap had stood up and moved out of his seat, after some encouragement she sits

And before anyone asks I stood for the entire trip