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Unread 09-08-2011, 11:30   #1
SESRSF
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Default Iarnrod Eireann's Plans to Save Ailing Lines

As some of you may have heard, Coras Iompair Eireann has set about considering the Parry People Mover as a possible saviour of the following; Waterford - Limerick, Limerick - Nenagh, and even Rosslare - Waterford.

Is this Irish Rail trying to appear to be for the poeple? Will the units survive 20 years of being thrashed up and down the lines? Will more of the infrastructure have to be ripped out to make it more viable? Views please.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 12:03   #2
Mark Gleeson
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Irish Rail is actually engaging in a blocking strategy to prevent others with a real interest from coming forward. They have entertained all kinds of crazy proposals including a plan to electrify the route (not joking)

The NTA has confirmed that there is no subsidy for the route so Irish Rail is effectively locked out. Any restoration with subsidy would require a public tender

There are three international rail/transport companies interested in running a real service with real trains. I have personally spoken with managers in two in the last 10 days one involved flying to ******* to review one of there current operations.

Irish Rail is legally blocked from ripping the track up on Rosslare Waterford by both the actually lines owners and also by the NTA

The simplest problem with the Parry People mover lark is its not big enough to cope with demand, 50+ passengers were routine on the route before closure. I've seen it take 3 large mini buses to replace a Waterford Limerick Junction train (all seats taken on all buses)

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 09-08-2011 at 12:07.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 12:36   #3
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Maybe they should buy a few rakes of Pacers from over here
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Unread 09-08-2011, 13:10   #4
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Well, I'd say no, the Pacers aren't DDA complant, and they're to be replaced with the older D78 Stock once they have left from the District Line. Lord only knows what their official designation will be.

I know that Tanya has been involved in the talks, as well as your good self Mark. But, what I am led to believe is that they will propose to have a prototype 2-car PPM100 built for the lines, with perhaps the PPM60 in use on the line to Nenagh.

I'd assume that perhaps Go-Ahead, or Arriva wold be interested in running rail services over that route. From experience, I'd say that Pacers are worse than the Parrys, and D78 stock probably better than both.

But then, D78 Stock is more Metro North than Tipperary North.

Any users of the Waterford - Limerick line on here? If so, do more than 100 people use the train any one time?
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Unread 09-08-2011, 13:10   #5
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Thankfully, the DDA is a UK law and does not apply in Ireland.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 13:19   #6
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Oh OK, I thought it applied to all of Europe now.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 13:28   #7
Mark Gleeson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESRSF View Post
I'd assume that perhaps Go-Ahead, or Arriva wold be interested in running rail services over that route. From experience,
Neither Go-Ahead, or Arriva are currently interested in operating in Ireland and I have never spoken with them there are others

I have a unique view on pacers which the RUI committee will know but we will be spared this thankfully. Irish Rail is subject to requirement via the DoT and NTA to ensure all new trains meet the UK DDA/RVAR and EU TSI's on accessibility

The problem is that you can't have a lightweight tram/train on a mainline and the Rosslare-Waterford-Limerick Junction line still is a mainline with trains of up to 1000 tons at times at reasonable speeds. Unlike the UK trials where the line is isolated from the mainline there is shared running at all points on the route and the last thing we want is to block potential through passenger and freight
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Unread 09-08-2011, 13:36   #8
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Yes there's a point, especially dangerous when you consider the crossing at Limerick Junction. Where small tram/trains are at risk of being sideswiped at 100MPH, in a worst-case scenario kind of incident.

Also, yes it will be of disruption to pretty much everyone else.

But, the Pacers are to go in favour of older, slower rolling stock in Britain, so any company would be very desperate indeed to get 80's rolling stock being replaced by 70's rolling stock.

Also, the regauging of Paces would much harder than doing it Sprinters for example, because of the affixed wheelsets on the pacers.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 13:45   #9
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Proper mainline trains are proposed by all interested parties currently, no importing of trains from the UK is proposed. In cost terms there is no point buying second hand junk when there is soon to be a glut of reasonably modern trains here.

Long term a direct service from Galway via Limerick to Rosslare is the goal and that requires a train capable of 75+mph to a reasonable standard which blows out of the water any kind of cheap tram tram solution
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Unread 09-08-2011, 14:30   #10
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Quote:
Any users of the Waterford - Limerick line on here? If so, do more than 100 people use the train any one time?
Use the service a little. The train couldn't hold 100 people. The most I have saw was about 30 ish people but would guess about 20 normally. 3 services a day doesn't work and the times are bad but they would have a very profitable service between Colonel - Waterford if they had a train ever 2 hours and an arrival in Waterford for 8.30 and a departure at 17.30.

A few weeks back the 6.40 had nobody on it leaving Waterford. Not a surprise as it should be running in the other direction.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 14:35   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESRSF View Post
As some of you may have heard, Coras Iompair Eireann has set about considering the Parry People Mover as a possible saviour of the following; Waterford - Limerick, Limerick - Nenagh, and even Rosslare - Waterford.

Is this Irish Rail trying to appear to be for the poeple? Will the units survive 20 years of being thrashed up and down the lines? Will more of the infrastructure have to be ripped out to make it more viable? Views please.
Hi, have noticed that you only mention "Limerick-Nenagh" - I guess this means Nenagh-Roscrea-Ballybrophy would, even under such plans, be closed?

My main concern here (and this is no reflection in any way on the formidable work towards restoring/retaining services being done) is that prospective operators would be “put off” by this apparent blocking strategy. I’m confident that they are robust companies but over time things can wear even the best down. Like many others I’d like to see Rosslare-Waterford restored and Limerick Junction-Waterford and Ballybrophy-Limerick retained. My preference would be to see a new operator/s. It would be awful that this current strong potential to restore and retain services would dissipate to the point where, for instance two years down the line there would be “no hope whatsoever” of anything.

Another thought is if they really want to Irish Rail may well find enough money from somewhere to reinstate the service without subsidy.

Last edited by Traincustomer : 09-08-2011 at 15:02. Reason: addition of content
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Unread 09-08-2011, 14:58   #12
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Hi, have noticed that you only mention "Limerick-Nenagh" - I guess this means Nenagh-Roscrea-Ballybrophy would, even under such plans, be closed?
cant see it closing especially with local TD Alan Kelly now minister for public transport
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Unread 09-08-2011, 15:31   #13
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That's the thing, IE may close that section because of many people having made alternative arrangments already, such as people going to Ballybrophy from Roscrea, instead of Roscrea itself.

You never know though, but the Colm McCarthy report is threatening that there's no hope whatever way you cut it.

Let's just maintain high hopes for now, I'm sure that with some kind of Community Rail Partnership, something can be worked out.

I will see to it that CIE get a full and frank e-mail - Don't wait with baited breath for a response though.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 15:44   #14
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The Nenagh line is the weakest link in the system currently as it is horrifically
uncompetitive in journey times.

I'd put money on it being next in the line for the axe
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Unread 09-08-2011, 16:08   #15
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And unlike Limerick-Waterford, which could be seen as being of strategic importance because it links two largeish cities, the Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy line links two towns to the network that are the same size as many others that got disconnected over the years - Youghal, New Ross, Bandon, Tuam, Macroom, Cavan, Monaghan etc.

Although I can't quite see it going while Kelly is the Minister in charge.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 16:33   #16
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That's interesting SESRSF about the northern section of the Nenagh line.

The Bord Snip report may well be very good from an economic perspective but feel it's fair comment to say that it displayed less than a complete mastery of understanding of rail services (e.g. by suggesting ceasing the Ballina line despite the freight flows). I think the railway needs to be guided by its general thrust rather its precise prescriptive measures.

Interestingly and slightly aside there are track works this coming Saturday between Birdhill and Roscrea. Wonder what the nature of these works are as Birdhill to Roscrea is quite a long stretch. (Bus substitution will apply-more details on website).
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Unread 09-08-2011, 16:54   #17
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What I've heard on the Save The Rosslare-Waterford line page, one theory is that they're simply doing this to look like the line is costing more to run than it really is.

That is just a theory I have heard though, don't take it as gospel. In fact, I'm not even sure if I should take anything I've heard as gospel.

This is mainly theories and rumour, who knows, IE may have just forgotten to mention Ballybrophy. I think this because there was some article in a magazine some time back saying "Rosslare - Wellingtonbridge - Waterford, Waterford - Clonmel - Limerick Junction, and Limerick - Nenagh -"

Out of interest, would anyone like the latest news regarding PPMs? The Rosslare - Waterford is mentioned, along with two other unnamed lines which I'd assume are W-LJ and L-BallyB, mind you, it is from Parry, so might be a bit biased.

I do hope that the entirety of the line does survive.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 17:04   #18
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Why bother with those silly PPM's when we already have 2 2751 single railcars, which, to my understanding, were acquired with the intention of using them on Waterford-Limk Jctn and Limk-Bphy? They have the same capacity as a road going coach I reckon...
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Unread 09-08-2011, 18:11   #19
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I don't think 2750s are allowed to operate in single units in case the engine in one unit breaks.
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Unread 09-08-2011, 20:06   #20
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Quote:
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Maybe they should buy a few rakes of Pacers from over here
They could do the job

(by the way little off topic side note hope all is okay out your way!)
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