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Unread 16-03-2015, 22:39   #21
Jack O'Neill
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Default Croke Park

Is there any talk of running Croke Park specials at least direct to Connolly?

Drumcondra would be unsuitable due to narrow platforms?

Match day extra trains to Maynooth shouldn't be affected if they could synchronise South bound specials?
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Unread 18-03-2015, 16:48   #22
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Yep completely agree, croke park match and concert days in drumcondra is bad enough with just maynooth passengers, imagine the chaos if Kildare passengers were thrown into the equation!
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Unread 18-03-2015, 17:49   #23
Jamie2k9
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It's to costly and unnecessary to run such services IMO. The Luas does the job combined that additional drivers and costs. Additionally specials arrive in Heuston hours before matches starts and people are not going to wait at Croke Park in between. Additionally rolling stock may be required back at Heuston between for service and just adds more to costs.

If you want door to door service perhaps drive to Croke Park, oh wait not possible on match days!

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 18-03-2015 at 18:04.
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Unread 19-03-2015, 14:59   #24
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At some point will some way of shoehorning a set of platforms onto the Broombridge-Docklands section (beside the Croke Park Hotel/cantilevered over the canal bank) not have to be faced up to (in exchange for yet another variation for the number of events), so that some services from west of Broombridge could be diverted to reduce the load on Drumcondra?

I know the residents on that side wouldn't be thrilled, but it might be parlayed into having some non-CP related services stop to/from Docklands in compensation.

Primary access could be via ramp to Jones Road bridge (assuming it can be signed off by the council to make the necessary alterations) but the trickiest bit would be how to get a second/emergency access to the southside platform.
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Unread 23-03-2015, 08:34   #25
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GCD is a real problem alright. I have seen talk of an exit at the north end but nothing detailed.

It's currently close to being unsafe
First parts of a new bridge have appeared at Grand Canal Dock
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Unread 23-03-2015, 17:19   #26
dowlingm
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Was that (GCD mention) meant to be in a different thread MG?
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Unread 24-03-2015, 09:45   #27
Kilocharlie
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Was that (GCD mention) meant to be in a different thread MG?
Don't think so. This thread is about Portlaoise/Kildare services using the PPT to reach GCD. Talk of Docklands/Croke Park are red herrings for 2 reasons 1) it's not possible and 2) much bigger catchment in the Connolly/Tara/Pearse/GCD area.
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Unread 25-03-2015, 10:05   #28
dowlingm
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Kilocharlie, the question was whether MG had intended to post the content elsewhere since the quote embedded was not from this thread, not that GCD was OT this discussion.
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Unread 26-03-2015, 00:00   #29
Jamie2k9
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Kilocharlie, the question was whether MG had intended to post the content elsewhere since the quote embedded was not from this thread, not that GCD was OT this discussion.
Post #12 of this thread/
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Unread 27-03-2015, 17:02   #30
dowlingm
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Post #12 of this thread/
Argh. Yes. Apologies to all.
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Unread 02-10-2015, 15:14   #31
Kilocharlie
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Buried deep within NTA Business case http://nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/DART_Expansion_Programme_Revised_Business_Case_201 5.pdffor the DART Underground (or not) is a proposed service level for Kildare-GCD services in the Do Minimum Section page 121-123

In Summary for the Morning peak:
To GCD
Peak: 2 trains per hour, all stops Kildare-GCD
Peak : 1 train from Newbridge and 1 from Portlaoise to GCD
The 8-9am period would have 4 services
To Heuston Commuter
Portlaoise- Heuston - Hourly as at present
Newbrige/Kildare - Heuston - one service each
To Heuston - Intercity serving commuter stops
1 Galway- Heuston (2 trains each service different stations)
1 Waterford - Heuston
0 Limerick
1 Westport
1 Carlow and 1 Athlone as at present.

Rolling stock:
The proposal shows most of the GCD traffic as 8xDMU (I presume would be 2x29000) and the Heuston traffic as 3XICR or 6xICR. There is an oddity with one Waterford-Hueston also being 8xDMU. Question here is where are they going to get all the 8xDMU's? Maybe this depends on electrifying the Maynooth line first?

Overall a big switch from IC to Commuter and GCD taking most of the traffic.
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Unread 02-10-2015, 15:35   #32
Jamie2k9
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29000 will never return to Heusotn especially with 100mph coming towards end of year between Portlaoise-Heuston.

Another doc full of rubbish from NTA, it's not as if they do much enforcement as it is what's going to change in the next few years!

I really worry about the "cursh capacity" calculations.

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 02-10-2015 at 15:42.
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Unread 02-10-2015, 19:06   #33
Mark Gleeson
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2700's will....

For Kildare Dublin there is little to choose over a 29000 and a ICR on a stopping service. 29000 is faster off the line and in terms of door open/close cycle

Line speed Hazelhatch Heuston is 70mph on the slow lines/
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Unread 02-10-2015, 20:53   #34
Jamie2k9
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Quote:
For Kildare Dublin there is little to choose over a 29000 and a ICR on a stopping service. 29000 is faster off the line and in terms of door open/close cycle
Fair point but the volume of passengers even at peak hours isn't anything significant on the Kildare route to require dwell to be reduced.

From a passenger prospective many commuters from Nass-Portlaoise hate getting the regular Portlaoise commuter services add 2700 or whatever and you make the service worse.

The 17.20/17.55 services are prime examples of services of heavily underused services and the 17.20 could be curtailed to Hazelhatch and the 17.55 cancelled tomorrow and have minimal impact. Would imagine a curtailed 18.25 service to Hazelhatch would also see no impact on customers.

If IE did the above adjustments they could then add a 17.40 to Portlaoise (Nass first stop) and easily keep costs down as they could get away with cutting capacity on 17.25/17.30/17.35 services and remove Nass and/or Newbridge/Kildare respectively. That gives those passenger a 30 minute service between 17.10-18.10.

Easy for IE to cut costs and keep all passengers types happy but I suspect the next timetable will not see much change from current Intercity/Commuter scheduling.

It will be interesting to see how GCD services will change such passenger travel patterns and views on services and it will be a question who wins current Luas/Intercity for Nass on or GCD commuter.

Around 50-55 minutes Nass-CDG or 15 minutes Nass-Heuston. Timings based on current commuter service to Nass (average 30-35 minutes), 10 minutes to Connolly, 10 minutes to GCD and the 15 minutes to Nass is based on fully 100mph between Hazelhatch-Nass (18 minutes currently scheduled).

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 02-10-2015 at 21:35.
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Unread 02-10-2015, 22:37   #35
Kilocharlie
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When the 29000s were on the Kildare route they were scheduled for as little as 44mins (2300-2344); today the same service by ICR is still scheduled for 44 mins 2310-2354! Even though the ICR can reach 100mph vs 75 for a 29k, it seems to make little difference to the all stopping schedule. The lack of top speed is compensated by better acceleration; after all the 29k was designed for stopping services.
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Unread 02-10-2015, 22:47   #36
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Quote:
When the 29000s were on the Kildare route they were scheduled for as little as 44mins (2300-2344); today the same service by ICR is still scheduled for 44 mins 2310-2354! Even though the ICR can reach 100mph vs 75 for a 29k, it seems to make little difference to the all stopping schedule. The lack of top speed is compensated by better acceleration; after all the 29k was designed for stopping services.
Fair point but I suspect the current schedules can be tightened up in terms of times, not saying the previous couldn't but as a passenger which stock do you prefer?

Not sure I could deal with commuter stock on a daily commute, not sure what it is but I could handle the DART but not 26/7/8/900 rolling stock.
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Unread 02-10-2015, 22:47   #37
Kilocharlie
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Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 View Post

If IE did the above adjustments they could then add a 17.40 to Portlaoise (Nass first stop) and easily keep costs down as they could get away with cutting capacity on 17.25/17.30/17.35 services and remove Nass and/or Newbridge/Kildare respectively. That gives those passenger a 30 minute service between 17.10-18.10.
Problem with a 1740 stopping all stops after Naas is the 1800 Cork! 20mins headway is insufficient.
For example, the 1810 holds up the 1830 to Galway which often has to slow by the time it reaches Kildare. But the 1810, even though it skips 2 stops, takes a leisurely 43 mins to Kildare. But a 1740 would still be caught by the 1800 well before Portlaoise. Rule No 1: don't slow a Cork train!
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Unread 02-10-2015, 23:03   #38
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Problem with a 1740 stopping all stops after Naas is the 1800 Cork! 20mins headway is insufficient.
For example, the 1810 holds up the 1830 to Galway which often has to slow by the time it reaches Kildare. But the 1810, even though it skips 2 stops, takes a leisurely 43 mins to Kildare. But a 1740 would still be caught by the 1800 well before Portlaoise. Rule No 1: don't slow a Cork train!
Will take some playing around with schedules but improvements should be possible. Limerick moves to 17.20 (10 minute gap to stopping 17.10), Galway 17.25, Waterford 17.30 and Portlaoise 17.35 (departing Newbridge by time 18.00 departures Heuston) so 20 minutes space and it should be in Portlaoise by 18.30 at latest and Cork will be 18.35 (rough etc with new speeds).

It will be tricky but it's needed, the .00 departure to Cork complicates things but be honest something IE will never change even if it was for the greater good.

There is also the option of leaving Portlaoise to Limerick only in evenings, Portarlington to Galway (some of them) and terminate at Kildare to allow Cork a clear road but the simple fact is there is demand for Nass/Newbridge/Kildare to justify there own service especially between 17-18.00 even if it's only one service per day.

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 02-10-2015 at 23:21.
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Unread 03-10-2015, 09:48   #39
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2700's will....
Is there really a chance of the 2700s coming out of retirement?
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Unread 03-10-2015, 11:17   #40
Kilocharlie
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Is there really a chance of the 2700s coming out of retirement?
The implication from the NTA doc is that they will need perhaps as many as 64xDMU vehicles to provide the GCD service so they will need to bring back the 2700s for a start.

More likely is that the initial GCD service will be much less ambitious and be 3xICR or even 2xDMU/4xDMU based perhaps using some 2700s. The GCD service will need more stock than is currently in service even allowing for a reduction in some IC train lengths if they are no longer stopping at the commuter stops. There no mention of funding in the GCD project for additional stock or overhauling the 2700s.

I think the NTA doc is looking into the medium term when some of the DART Expansion, such as Maynooth line electrification, has been implemented releasing a load of DMUs.
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