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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:07   #1
paddyb180285
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Default Draft Map?



I notice that this map is mentioned on the 11th of March 2007 in the news section on the platform 11 web site.Dalkey, Killiney and Sydney Parade seem to be linked to the blue line for Gorey as well as Raheny and Clontarf Road. However, the maps I have seen on the DART don't include these links.I know it is a draft map like the name says or is it going to replace the ones which are currently on the DART? I'm a bit confused!!!
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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:18   #2
Aphfaneire
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Well for one thing, im not an expert but i asked months ago about the new maps that apeared on the dart, very similar to these. And now they're appearing on the commuters. That map does seem different though, as im not sure the commuter services are only layed out as a blue line without a further key instruction about the different routes.


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Unread 19-03-2007, 15:30   #3
Mark Gleeson
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The draft map found its way to us in early July 2006, it did not come from a source within the CIE group, it is different from the on train one which was signed of in September

At the time IE had promised a new map after several letters we sent in complaining that few if any maps existed and those that did where out of date by a considerable number of months, eg Aerdart had shut down and Luas had started

After about 2 months thinking the map would appear we wrote again to IE stating we had obtained a copy of the map and that since we could prove it existed any delay was inexplicable and surprise surprise two weeks later the maps appeared
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Unread 19-03-2007, 17:28   #4
paddyb180285
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Who designed this map if nobody from CIE did?Whoever did,the map is very misleading for people from Dalkey(me being one of them),Killiney and Raheny.
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Unread 19-03-2007, 19:24   #5
luasifer
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The on train ones do not show the airport connections from Heuston(748), Busaras(747), Tara Street(747). Poor ommission I think. Lets not go near the whole luas green line thing!!
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Unread 20-03-2007, 15:17   #6
shweeney
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its a rubbish map - why do they need to depict dublin bay, it just makes the whole shape of the map awkward. They should do it all with straight, horizontal lines.
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Unread 20-03-2007, 15:27   #7
Mark Gleeson
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On one level the map is fair representation, stick your head over the wall at Seapoint at Howth is directly across, it does allow for a more detailed map since it gives a lot more room to work with

Given a choice between no map and this you have little choice

I have a less than great photo of the 2nd edition of the original map circa 1990 will post later.

Does anyone have the 1984 map??
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Unread 20-03-2007, 15:45   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
On one level the map is fair representation, stick your head over the wall at Seapoint at Howth is directly across, it does allow for a more detailed map since it gives a lot more room to work with
Who cares where places are? We're not walking or driving ourselves there. Irish Rail must be the only operator I know that uses geographically correct maps. There's just no point to them. All they need is one straight line showing all the stops on the route. Text should be sideways (not diagonal) and large enough to read without having to stand directly in front of the map. Why can everyone else do this except IR?

The only reason I can see, apart from someone being needlessly artistic, is because advertising space comes before passenger information.

Also there's a difference between route maps and system maps but IR don't seem to realise that either. Even system maps don't need to be geographically correct either, they just need to show passengers where to make connections.

Edit:
Route map (bottom)
http://www.transitlink.com.sg/images...rain_route.jpg

System map
http://www.trainweb.org/railworld/NDLS/images/Map.jpg

Last edited by markpb : 20-03-2007 at 15:55.
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Unread 20-03-2007, 15:53   #9
Colm Donoghue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markpb View Post

The only reason I can see, apart from someone being needlessly artistic, is because advertising space comes before passenger information.
exactly! The maps for passengers have to fit into spare slots for advertisers

Last edited by Colm Donoghue : 20-03-2007 at 15:53. Reason: spelling
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Unread 20-03-2007, 16:04   #10
Mark Gleeson
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Its appallingly inaccurate geographically but make a half effort just like the London map, the map definitely helps you figure out where you are particularly on the southside since you can see where you are

Presumably someone in 1984 had a look at it and figured they couldn't fit in a standard advertising space so they went with 1.5 times width which was a perfect fit, that was before Kildare started

Map would need to go square almost to fit it all in correctly, typically maps in large systems would only cover one line so I think we are lucky
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Unread 20-03-2007, 16:44   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Its appallingly inaccurate geographically but make a half effort just like the London map, the map definitely helps you figure out where you are particularly on the southside since you can see where you are
If you don't know where you are, you should never have to look at a map to find out. What's the point of that? We (should have) have digital scrollers and verbal announcements.

Quote:
Presumably someone in 1984 had a look at it and figured they couldn't fit in a standard advertising space so they went with 1.5 times width which was a perfect fit, that was before Kildare started
Kildare is only a problem because they're trying to fit a system map into a route map. All that needs to go on the overhead displays in a Dart, is a route map with an indication where to change for the Kildare Line (haha).

The way it's done in LA is:

- current route map on the overhead displays
- system map on the glass screens either side of the door (ie backs of seats)
- decent signage in the stations so you know where you are
- decent announcements

I know IR have problems with at least two of those (and with the 29000s) but its not excuse for the crummy maps on the Dart.
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Unread 21-03-2007, 18:19   #12
Mark Gleeson
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As promised the original



Some further investigation shows that there where actually two different maps back then, the northern line was always at the north end regardless of which side you looked, so the second was a flopped version

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 21-03-2007 at 22:55.
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Unread 29-03-2007, 19:09   #13
MrX
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I suppose the fact that nothing really interconnects and that there's no integration of anything would render a circuit diagram style map, like the london underground, completely useless anyway!
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Unread 30-03-2007, 13:29   #14
shweeney
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my alternative, from a previous thread:

http://forum.platform11.org/attachme...6&d=1162457745

all horizontal lines, similar enough to the original map. Definitely think its a better way of depicting it than trying to crowbar Dublin Bay into the picture...
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Unread 30-03-2007, 13:31   #15
markpb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shweeney View Post
my alternative, from a previous thread:

http://forum.platform11.org/attachme...6&d=1162457745

all horizontal lines, similar enough to the original map. Definitely think its a better way of depicting it than trying to crowbar Dublin Bay into the picture...

It's slightly clearer than the IR one but I still don't know why Darts should show the full suburban map over the door - there just isn't space and most people will never care. Show the current line and where to make connections.
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Unread 31-03-2007, 10:00   #16
MrX
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What you need is :

(a) Map of DART line only in a circuit style diagram.
All connections, to Luas, Commuter Rail and Bus routes (including a notice that there's a short walk to Bus Aras)

(b) Large map (perhaps one per coach) on the wall with a map of the full Dublin network.

In Cork on the commuter service:

They need to ensure that they have maps of Cork and not completely useless maps of Dublin which just gives users the impression that IE doesn't give a damn about Cork. It's one of the worst peices of PR I've seen.

Again in Cork there should be a map of the line in question + a map of the local area.
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Unread 31-03-2007, 22:48   #17
James Shields
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I like the London Underground format, which is copied my many other railways.

Over each door is a diagram showing only the current line, generally arranged as a long horizontal line, though for some lines this requires showing branches or loops. It follows the following design rules:

1. All station names are printed horizontally, to maximise readability. I seem to recall on one of the early DART maps they were displayed diagonally, which some people find difficult to read.

2. Non-interchange stations are shown as a simple tick on the line, in the same colour as the line itself. The station name is centered above or below the tick.

3. Interchange stations are shown as a black circle with a white centre. The station name is centered above or below the circle, with a list of the lines it connects, colour-coded clearly.

Everything is clear and consistent, even whenmoving from one transport company to another.
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Unread 01-04-2007, 19:15   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrX View Post

Again in Cork there should be a map of the line in question + a map of the local area.

I reckon the map of the local area should be standard but only in the station/stop.
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Unread 02-04-2007, 06:08   #19
markus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostcarpark View Post
I like the London Underground format, which is copied my many other railways.
Here's a link to the map of public transport in Vienna, I find it quite helpful and my friends from abroad had no problems with it, despite the funny pronunciation of some station names. http://www.wienerlinien.at/WienerSta...LOAD/SVP_6.pdf
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Unread 06-04-2007, 07:33   #20
Colm Moore
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What the new map does is allow two rows of stations compared to the normal one row. But it is trying too hard and failing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
As promised the original



Some further investigation shows that there where actually two different maps back then, the northern line was always at the north end regardless of which side you looked, so the second was a flopped version
Thats a 1990 (it includes Broombridge, etc.), not a 1984.

Last edited by Colm Moore : 06-04-2007 at 07:40.
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