Rail Users Ireland Forum

Go Back   Rail Users Ireland Forum > General Information & Discussion > Events, Happenings and Media
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Unread 27-01-2008, 13:24   #1
Mark Hennessy
Membership Officer
 
Mark Hennessy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Maynooth
Posts: 1,116
Default [Article] SBPost: Porto points the way for Metro

RUI mentioned Porto as the model years ago.

Better hurry up and get the submissions for tender in before the T21 gig is up!

Quote:
The light rail system of Portugal’s second city could be the perfect model to meet Dublin’s needs, writes Nicola Cooke in Porto.

Invitations to tender for the much-vaunted Metro North in Dublin will be sent out to four consortiums within the next 12 weeks,
when the real work of designing a suitable system will finally begin.

The 19-kilometre commuter rail system, intended to serve a corridor from Swords to Dublin city centre, with a spur to Dublin Airport,
has a projected design capacity of 34 million passengers per year.

The necessity of such a capacity is debatable - the system would be able to carry 20,000 passengers per hour - but the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said it is ‘‘future-proofing’’ the system for the passenger increase with Terminal 2 at Dublin Airport, and Fingal County Council’s plans for a new ‘city’ of up to 100,000 people in Swords.




The RPA has looked at other European cities for design inspiration for Metro North. Portugal’s Metro do Porto, in the country’s second-largest city, is one in which it is particularly interested, because of many parallels it has with Dublin.

Porto, north of Lisbon, has a population of 1.2 million and a new metro system was completed there in 2006. It was easy to see, from a visit to the city, how its urban rail system had revolutionised public transport - mainly as a result of an innovative integrated ticketing system.

Transdev, one of the bidders for the construction and operation of Metro North (and whose bid financiers include AIB and Macquarie Bank) operates the system in Porto with impressive efficiency. While Metro North will have 15 stops on one line - and around half of it (10km) will be underground -Metro do Porto runs on five different lines, is 70km long, and has 69s tops.

Metro do Porto was a regional project, not a central government one, and requests for tenders to build it were put forward in 1995. These were awarded in 1998, and construction began that year. The first line opened in 2002, and the system was completed in 2006.So far, this initial timeframe is similar to that of Metro North.

The Porto network runs underground for seven kilometres in the city’s central district. Again, this would be similar to the Metro North underground tunnel plans, that bring it to the final stop in St Stephen’s Green, where the green Luas line terminates. The total construction cost of Metro do Porto was €2 billion, while transport experts have indicated to The Sunday Business Post that the estimated cost of Metro North would be around €3.2 billion.

Reasons why the cost will be more expensive in Dublin include the price of acquiring property here, more expensive underground tunnelling, and a stop underneath the River Liffey at O’Connell Bridge. Construction, scheduled to start at the end of next year, would begin 11 years later than in Porto, so inflation and higher labour costs are also taken into account.

Porto’s red line - 17.2 km in length and serving a route from the suburb of Povoa to the city centre - is also similar in length to Metro North’s route. Metro do Porto’s airport route still only carries 10 per cent of Porto airport’s passengers, but this is expected to increase significantly in the coming years.

Metro do Porto spokesman Jorge Morgado said the company was in contact with the RPA, and that it was helping the RPA with ‘‘the Dublin project’’. Morgado said the new metro system had reversed a 15-year decline of public transport use in the city, and led to a decrease of 100,000 car journeys a year into the city.

‘‘Traffic in the city ten years ago was chaotic, and there was no good or effective bus system,” said Morgado. The train system was old, too. While the metro alone was not the solution, it was part of the solution, and the modernisation of transport in the city. Bus, metro and heavy train services are now co-ordinated to provide an integrated public transport system, and people are increasingly using this again. There was a 25 per cent growth in passenger numbers – from 3.8 million a month to 5 million a month - in the 18 months between June 2006 and November 2007, Morgado said.

Porto public transport users have embraced the smartcard system of travelling, where pre-paid cards are scanned electronically and can be used across travel zones, on any mode of public transport. Half of all passengers use these.

According to the RPA, integrated ticket use between Dublin Bus and Luas will be possible in autumn next year. Irish Rail and Dart will be added to the system in 2010 and, when Metro North is operational by 2013, integrated ticketing will also apply.

The major differences between Metro North and Metro do Porto are the 200 security staff employed to travel on the rail network, and a €5 million compensation scheme for businesses which suffered losses when the system was under construction.

While the underground stations for the Dublin metro will be manned, there will be no specialised security staff employed for trains - or a business compensation scheme - according to RPA spokesman Tom Manning.

‘‘We will apply for the detailed railway order [planning permission] in the next few months, but we don’t envisage a need for security personnel on Metro North.

‘‘The nine underground stations on the route will be manned by metro employees, but the situation would be similar to Luas where contact with the control room is available to staff.

‘‘There is no compensation scheme for any business in Ireland where major infrastructure, such as a railway, gas lines or waterworks is being laid - but the legal remedy is open to anyone.

‘‘The next 18 months is crucial to the whole process, and will include a railway order decision, the selection of a preferred bidder, financial closure on the project and the commencement of construction towards the end of next year,’’ Manning said.
Mark Hennessy is offline  
Unread 27-01-2008, 13:48   #2
Colm R
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 106
Default

Quote:
According to the RPA, integrated ticket use between Dublin Bus and Luas will be possible in autumn next year. Irish Rail and Dart will be added to the system in 2010 and, when Metro North is operational by 2013, integrated ticketing will also apply.
I just cannot understand why integrated ticketing cannot start tomorrow morning. All it requires is a Minister to make it so and the CIE and the RPA to implement it.

I work for a large company, and like most employees these days, I carry a Staff ID wth my photograph on it.

For Health & Safety Reasons, the System knows I am in the building and is also able to tell what floor I am on, and in some cases what room I am in. This is not my employer spying on me, rather my location is known in the event of a fire.

Get this, I also use the same card at a pay machine to put credit on it, so I can use it at the canteen and on vending machines.

Its Integrated!!! Its not difficult!!!!!!

Last edited by Colm R : 27-01-2008 at 14:58.
Colm R is offline  
Unread 27-01-2008, 14:00   #3
Mark Hennessy
Membership Officer
 
Mark Hennessy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Maynooth
Posts: 1,116
Default

The technology is the easy part Colm.

The infighting and politics from civil service, DB, IE and RPA is the hard part.

The lack of clear direction from the minister down does not help at all.
Mark Hennessy is offline  
Unread 27-01-2008, 16:08   #4
philip
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 632
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy View Post
The technology is the easy part Colm.

The infighting and politics from civil service, DB, IE and RPA is the hard part.

The lack of clear direction from the minister down does not help at all.
The civil sevants are most to blame after the minister and ultimately Mr. Ahern.

It's simply not a big enough issue for most of the dopey electorate who still think widening the M50 is going to get them to work on the other side of town a few minutes earlier.
philip is offline  
Unread 28-01-2008, 10:29   #5
ACustomer
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 767
Default

If the information in the SNP article is correct, then the cost per km of Metro do Porto was about €28.5m compared with a projected €160m for Dublin. The difference is really staggering: its not enough to explain it away by saying that property acquisition and compensation costs will be higher in Dublin, which seems like factoring the inflated prices of the property bubble into the projected cost. A more valid reason for Porto being cheaper is that (a bit like the Green Line Luas) the Metro has used old narrow guage lines and tunnels (on the Povoa line, I think) and also has used one of the existing high-level bridges to cross the River Douro.

What is most interesting in the piece is the point about the investment in security in Porto (200 personnel), campared with the bland RPA approach of zero security personnel. The utter complacency of this should be highlighted.
ACustomer is offline  
Unread 28-01-2008, 10:44   #6
markpb
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACustomer View Post
The difference is really staggering: its not enough to explain it away by saying that property acquisition and compensation costs will be higher in Dublin
What property will have to be aquired to build the metro? I assume the depot at Metropark and the Blind Training Centre at Whitworth but what else would there be?
markpb is offline  
Unread 28-01-2008, 11:25   #7
philip
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 632
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpb View Post
What property will have to be aquired to build the metro? I assume the depot at Metropark and the Blind Training Centre at Whitworth but what else would there be?
Lissenhall P&R. Bits of overground in and around Dublin airport approaches cross private lands. Not a whole lot which you'd think would be in our favour given land costs in Dublin. Is the Mater not owned by the Sisters of Mercy or something? Would they need compensating? One would hope not.
philip is offline  
Unread 31-01-2008, 17:39   #8
Aphfaneire
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: County louth, 6 miles from civilisation:-(
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philip View Post
Lissenhall P&R. Bits of overground in and around Dublin airport approaches cross private lands. Not a whole lot which you'd think would be in our favour given land costs in Dublin. Is the Mater not owned by the Sisters of Mercy or something? Would they need compensating? One would hope not.
Does this mean they changed that law of owning land under a property or has that technicallity been changed when they built the port tunnel, or is just an urban myth to claim how s hit are government is.
__________________
Commuting is my extra 50 minutes of sleep
Aphfaneire is offline  
Unread 31-01-2008, 18:39   #9
Colm Moore
Local Liaison Officer
 
Colm Moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,442
Default

They have set the cost of land below 10m(?) at zero.
Colm Moore is offline  
Unread 31-01-2008, 18:44   #10
Aphfaneire
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: County louth, 6 miles from civilisation:-(
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
They have set the cost of land below 10m(?) at zero.
Oh ok. So none of that you own all the land under your house too the centre of the earth bullcrap then.
__________________
Commuting is my extra 50 minutes of sleep
Aphfaneire is offline  
Unread 31-01-2008, 18:49   #11
Colm Moore
Local Liaison Officer
 
Colm Moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphfaneire View Post
Oh ok. So none of that you own all the land under your house too the centre of the earth bullcrap then.
You do own it, just that if the government is taking it the are paying nil for the land and X for the disruption.
Colm Moore is offline  
Unread 31-01-2008, 23:51   #12
philip
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 632
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
You do own it, just that if the government is taking it the are paying nil for the land and X for the disruption.
Do you own it though? Maybe registry of deeds properties you do but land registry folios always say something like "does not extend to the mines and minerals". Stamp?
philip is offline  
Unread 01-02-2008, 00:00   #13
Thomas J Stamp
Chairman/Publicity
 
Thomas J Stamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Home of Hurling
Posts: 2,708
Default

it'll cost you
__________________
We are the passengers
Thomas J Stamp is offline  
Unread 01-02-2008, 09:53   #14
Garrett
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 78
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philip View Post
It's simply not a big enough issue for most of the dopey electorate who still think widening the M50 is going to get them to work on the other side of town a few minutes earlier.
Careful now! The "dopey electorate" are commuters and their views have to be taken in context. Many have never lived with or truly experienced long term a proper public transport network, so you can't bash them for believing in the only form of transport that has worked for them - road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philip
Lissenhall P&R. Bits of overground in and around Dublin airport approaches cross private lands.
I was wondering whether such lands are actually worth much, particularly if they're not zoned for residential or industrial use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by philip
Do you own it though? Maybe registry of deeds properties you do but land registry folios always say something like "does not extend to the mines and minerals".
I believe mines and minerals are considered national treasures and resources and are therefore "owned" by the Nation. I think it's in the constitution somewhere.
Garrett is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 13:01.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.