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Unread 22-11-2016, 09:58   #1
JohnnyBoy
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Default Overcrowding

Does anybody know at what point trains would be considered to be dangerously overcrowded?
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Unread 22-11-2016, 12:04   #2
ThomasJ
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There isn't (well not in ies book anyway )

The standard reply is its the norm globally.

Intercity railcars operate on the maynooth line. More often than not they're leaving passengers behind even on docklands services . The simple fact is intercity railcars are not suitable for busy peak hour commuter services. The 27k carriages which are lying around would be more suited for this reason.
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Unread 22-11-2016, 19:59   #3
Mark Gleeson
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No legal standard exists

If you witness an incident due to crowding, ensure it is reported to the commission for railway regulation CRR, info@crr.ie
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Unread 22-11-2016, 23:03   #4
Colm Moore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBoy View Post
Does anybody know at what point trains would be considered to be dangerously overcrowded?
All the unsafe incidents I have seen on trains involved individuals or small groups engaged in anti-social behaviour or outright violence. On any train, or indeed most other places, drunkenness / rowdiness / intimidation / violence is much more threatening. Train travel is in the order of 10 to 100 times safer than car travel. I have never seen dangerous overcrowding.

DART carriages used to have 72 seats. They were 'full' when they had the equivalent number standing (total 144). They were over-full when they had twice that level standing (total 216), e.g. after World Cup match. I've only seen it at that level once. However, the mood was jovial, so there were no real problems. DART carriages now have fewer seats and more standing space (which also allows space for wheelchairs and prams).

All that said, a train carriage with more than 150 people in it can be rather cramped, especially on a cold wet morning where people aren't respecting the space of other people or aren't moving down the carriage / train. This can feel distinctly uncomfortable. A passenger etiquette campaign would be useful across a range of services and topics.
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Unread 23-11-2016, 08:10   #5
Inniskeen
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It all depends on what is considered dangerous. I accept that the rolling stock is mechanically designed for crush load and more and broafly concur with IR mantra in that respect. When it comes to evacuation due to a fire or other incident, then obviously the issue becomes a little different and in that respect perhaps there should be standards. In the event of derailment certain types of injuries are more likely to occur depending on th load of the train. If a train is very full and travelling quickly (not very common on Irish Rail) crush injuries might be more prevalent as the mass of people behave like a fluid. If the train is relatively lightly loaded then passengers might be propelled from one end of the carriage to the other.
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Unread 23-11-2016, 10:39   #6
James Howard
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One major difference between Irish Rail and urban carriages in other countries is the relatively lack of exits which has a bearing on emergency escape. This is particularly severe with the idiotic use of ICRs for commuter duties.
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Unread 23-11-2016, 13:25   #7
Colm Moore
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One major difference between Irish Rail and urban carriages in other countries is the relatively lack of exits which has a bearing on emergency escape. This is particularly severe with the idiotic use of ICRs for commuter duties.
I'm not sure if this is a particular issue. In fire escape management (or other incidents), the usual criteria are (a) distance to nearest escape to fresh air and (b) distance to alternative exit (c) width of exit route and (d) number of people likely to use the space at any one time. One factor against that on a train is the width of the aisle and relatively large number of people - but it isn't much different to say a busy pub or club. Doubling the width of an exit route more than doubles the capacity of the route.

If there is a single incident, e.g. an accidental fire, then there is usually only one location and people can escape in both directions. In the event of a double / multiple incident, then only a modest number of people are trapped in the middle, but even then, escape is possible through windows.

Availability of escape needs to be balanced with preventing people inappropriately leaving a carriage when it isn't at a platform, e.g. if there is a breakdown and people try to leave the train when it is on an embankment, bridge or on a double-track or multi-track section where there is a risk of being struck by another train.

With the DART carriages, the doors can't be at the very centre or extreme ends due to the use of tightly-curved platforms, especially at Connolly and Tara Street. However, the 'dead ends' aren't particularly far from the nearest door.

22000s and other stock with single-opening doors (as opposed to the double doors on DART and most commuter stock) should only be used on quieter suburban services where otherwise the service wouldn't run.
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Last edited by Colm Moore : 23-11-2016 at 13:41.
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Unread 24-11-2016, 09:32   #8
JohnnyBoy
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So IE have no guidelines on appropriate load for specific models? I find that staggering.
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