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Unread 09-05-2006, 13:41   #1
Colm Donoghue
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Default Ticket prices

How come IE don't have a list of ticket prices online?
You have to register, and await somebody to read the email and read the price off the "secret price list" and email you back the next day.

You can book a ticket online, surely the price is known automatically, but I'm not entering my CC number to find out how much something costs.
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Unread 09-05-2006, 13:53   #2
Mark Gleeson
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Use the reservation system to find the journey you want, you then get a drop down box it will quote the fares, adult, child, student, faircard, if you select first class it will show the upgrade ticket costs as well

You don't need to enter any personal details at all

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BTW above query is single Kildare Cork for the 21:00 Dublin Cork service

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 09-05-2006 at 14:14.
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Unread 09-05-2006, 16:20   #3
Colm Donoghue
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Mark, try from a station on the northern line to a station on the cork line.
Doesn't work for me.
I see a ticket from heuston spits out the prices alright, I was wondering how the heck I missed that yesterday.
So it sorta-works.

Ok checked again. can't get the price if one leg is a suburban train even if its a no-change journey for the suburban journey.

Try Hazelhatch - Thurles Mark

I still think if it's possible to buy one return ticket from Cobh to Belfast, IE should have a price list with every station to every other station online for the most common types of tickets (single; day,week,month,student,first class returns; child fare). I'm thinking of those milage charts you see in road atlases. With a note saying there may be reductions and promotions yada yada)
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Unread 09-05-2006, 16:33   #4
Mark Gleeson
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What works is any intercity station to any other irrespective of location, so Thurles Connolly results in the correct fare, Thurles Sallins works, Thurles Skerries works too, any station within the short hop zone won't work

http://www.platform11.org/passenger_...res_matrix.php is the suburban matrix, imagine that with twice as many stations, single A-B is not the same as B-A at certain times

The spread of ticketing options is crazy the only practical way is a ryanair style pick your journey then get a quote
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Unread 09-05-2006, 16:55   #5
James Shields
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson
The spread of ticketing options is crazy the only practical way is a ryanair style pick your journey then get a quote
I like the idea of this.

My only question is... if you book a discounted ticket for a specific train but then miss your train, is your ticket valid on the next one?

If you have to pay a transfer fee, or the difference between the fairs of the two journeys, that's fair enough. But if your ticket is no longer valid and you have to pay full fare, that would be a major disincentive to people booking online.
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Unread 09-05-2006, 17:57   #6
Mark Gleeson
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Its a bit grey at the moment but when yield management comes in prices will vary so I'd expect a pay the difference with the normal standard fare, free transfer to a fare of equal value or less if done more than 1 hour from departure.

There won't be taxes, charges and security hangups like airlines

One thing I want to see is the customer charter refund being stuck in your credit card account not beyond the realms of possibility

I think query driven quote is the way to go
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Unread 09-05-2006, 18:16   #7
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No, I think the more simplistic MTA Metro North/Long Island Railroad model should be used.

That is, each train is marked "Peak" or "Off Peak" and the (zonal) fare for each are considerably different. But the fares are on the printed schedules and you can work out in advance how much a journey is going to cost, very easily.

On Commuter trains each train is either choc-o-bloc with people fainting, or running at a fraction of capacity (or empty), so a Peak / Off Peak distinction Metro North RR style should make sense.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 08:39   #8
Colm Donoghue
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If they're gonna have ryan air style ticketing prices, then at least they could tell you the price of the ticket for *Every* station to every other station online.

Mark, I don't think its good enough for us to accept an system that claims to work for all stations and only is set up to work for intercity stations.

I mean, if IE can't get an online integrated ticketed system for IE trains, we can hardly berate the rpa.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 08:55   #9
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Please, please, please do not go down the route of yield management. It works good for airlines who's sole aim is to maximise the profit per passenger. But the public transport system is NOT there to be a cash cow, it is there to provide a public service!!! With most of the infrastructure paid from our taxes!

Sure, the argument is that it can be used to manage demand, but this is TOTALLY the wrong attitude to take for the future of public transport. Increase capacity to meet demand. It is the ONLY way.

I understand we have problems at peak times, but this can be managed in other ways. In the Netherlands, I can travel any time of day, anywhere on the intercity network, for the same fixed price. I don't need a ticket for a specific train, just for the trip itself, and I can take any reasonable routing. However, NS do offer a 'Korting' Card (Discount Card) which you can purchase for 1 year for €50. Using this card, I get a 40% discount on ALL services, if I travel AFTER 9am Mon-Fri, and also all weekend. This makes InterCity travel very cheap. A very simple mechanism for encouraging people to travel off-peak.

Fixed fares, and enough capacity to ensure reservations are not needed. Turn up and go with a cheap price is the only way we are really going to get people out of their cars and onto trains.

Let's not follow the British model.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 09:53   #10
James Shields
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I think it depends how it's used. IE have to get permission for any price increases, so the standard ticket price should remain the maximum. If variable pricing can encourage people who can be flexible in their travel plans to switch to off-peak services to avail of discounts, that is a good thing.

However, if an airline-style model were adopted, where prices of highly used services skyrocket in an effort to force people to travel off-peak, I think the result would be the opposite of the desired effect, and people would switch to cars and busses in droves.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 12:36   #11
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http://www.economist.com/displaystor...ory_id=5603413

Economist, March 9 2006
All aboard for privatisation
Its long-distance and regional passenger routes are certainly profitable. But Mr Mehdorn's critics point to the sluggish growth of rail use. The Bahn scored an own-goal in 2002 by trying to sell tickets with demand-driven pricing—like a low-cost airline—misjudging totally the value its customers placed on flexible rail travel. Passengers deserted in droves. It took until last year to claw numbers back to 1999 levels. Mr Mehdorn insists there is lots of growth potential—half the German population does not yet use rail. Overall rail usage rose by 26% for passengers and 39% for freight between 1993 and 2005, he points out.


Variable pricing a la low-cost airlines was a disaster for DB. The flexibility of rail is a big attraction and people won't take too kindly to paying vast premiums if they turn up a half hour before departure. Train trips are not planned as far in advance as airline trips, and people for example travelling home on a Friday evening are unlikely to defer their trip from a high price peak fare to a lower price fare earlier in the day or the next morning - they will seek alternatives. Also, what will happen discount tickets like student fares and OAP passes at peak times, once ticketing goes fully online? Will they not be allowed travel on certain trains, given their revenue would be much lower than a person paying a premium?
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Unread 10-05-2006, 12:38   #12
Mark Gleeson
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Ticket prices are regulated by the DoT so the top price is set in stone and can't be increased, thats the price we pay today

End of the day you are probably looking at a 3 level system, open returns no restriction at full DoT fare as current, reduced cost off peak limited to certain services and yield managed specific train only fare reserved seat. Under that model, fares don't increase but cheaper fares are available if you are happy to travel at certain times, its fairly simple. The UK situation is a disaster since there are multiple operators with different rules and pricing structures thankfully that won't happen here

This is a demand management problem problem is simple there is balance between capacity and demand, basically you can't have 50 coaches just for Friday. There are some basic things we must remember, there will never be enough seats for 5pm to x on a Friday evening. Every intercity passenger deserves a seat. I can almost guarantee that they will be people standing on the 1pm, 3pm and 5pm Dublin Cork services on Friday. People don't suddenly at 4:15 pm on Friday say I'm going to Cork, so book online. The system allows booking to within 1 hour of the trains departure from terminus

Standing passengers on intercity are not a good idea it causes all kinds of problems with catering and drives the AC mad as the inter-carriage doors are left open, should be thankful we don't have titling trains they are so weight sensitive the tilt locks out if there are too many standing

From what we know IE are not going to introduce compulsory booking, student tickets will still be accepted on all trains I'm told, note students can book seats online. OAPs the law is free travel on scheduled services it doesn't say anything about booking

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 10-05-2006 at 12:42.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 13:06   #13
Colm Donoghue
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Default demand management = reduce price to fill nearly all seats

I'd see it that way too Mark, offer reduced price tickets to trains that will be running less than full in order to get the most passengers carried. I guess the marginal cost of a passenger is very low (cleaning cost of a full train vs half full one and the extra fuel needed to accelerate an extra 0.1tonne) but try make money on catering (I know this is a sore point)
If you can sell have to sell tickets for a fiver for the less frequented services, then do that. It's a fiver more in cie's pocket. People are used to cheap fares now and they will learn to book for the cheap seats. (it doesn't need to be a fiver, just low enough to fill the seats)

I've done some checking, a return Skerries to Thurles/ Connolly to Thurles is 1 euro dearer from Skerries, 2 Euros dearer than from heuston (for the 90 bus I presume)
So IE need a bit of code to say suburban stations on western/northern lines = connolly price
Likewise for cork suburban, an extra 2 euro for all suburban journeys should be shown.
Pearse or Tara don't give a fare, Bray is 42 Euro vs 44 from Greystones.

I still think a full fare matrix with dublin stations noted as travelling via Connolly or via Heuston and two prices for those showing prices for all non-suburban stations is a good idea. Again with a note to say reduced fares may apply for early booking.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 13:16   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colmd
I'd see it that way too Mark, offer reduced price tickets to trains that will be running less than full in order to get the most passengers carried. I guess the marginal cost of a passenger is very low (cleaning cost of a full train vs half full one and the extra fuel needed to accelerate an extra 0.1tonne) but try make money on catering (I know this is a sore point)
If you can sell have to sell tickets for a fiver for the less frequented services, then do that. It's a fiver more in cie's pocket. People are used to cheap fares now and they will learn to book for the cheap seats. (it doesn't need to be a fiver, just low enough to fill the seats)
That's how it should work, having marginal revenue = marginal cost. The aim though should be to maximise the revenue not the passenger numbers (i.e. 50 people at 20 euro is better than 100 people at 5 euro). What would the marginal costs of inter-city services be? Given that Network Catering is going IE won't have responsibility for catering. Anyone know the nature of that contract - i.e. will IE get a fixed amount of revenue from the private operator or will it vary based on the passenger numbers?
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Unread 10-05-2006, 13:25   #15
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Probably a set fee plus a percentage of turnover
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Unread 10-05-2006, 13:40   #16
Colm Donoghue
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No I think as there's a public service, and public subsidies for passenger services, then maximizing passengers should be IE's aim. more passengers travelling by train should equal less congestion on the nations roads, less pollution per journey
In a sane world at any rate, the social benefits of reduced congestion would be accounted for.
Assuming there are trains travelling below capacity, IE should drop prices to fill them.
I am assuming that there is no way in hell that IE could lose money by carrying more passengers but the very fact I'm spelling this out means we all know that it could happen.

I suppose this (losing money) could happen on the waterford Limerick-Junction line, dunno about any other lines.

anyhow. to sum up. IE should give ticket prices as well as times on their connections. they should allow a bit less than 40 minuts for a Heuston Connolly connection at 8pm on a sunday too.

Last edited by Colm Donoghue : 10-05-2006 at 13:50.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 14:25   #17
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Quote:
The aim though should be to maximise the revenue not the passenger numbers (i.e. 50 people at 20 euro is better than 100 people at 5 euro).
No, it is the opposite. The aim is to maximise passengers, not revenue. Get people off the roads and onto trains. Helps improve all our lives.

To me it all comes back to ease of use. The public transport system has to be easy to use. If I get off the DART and 17:00 and decide I want to go visit a friend in Dundalk, I should be able to get the lowest price there and then. Not messing around making bookings, searching for fares. And I don't agree that we can't have enough capacity to give everyone (or almost everyone) a seat at peak times. So what if we have over capacity. It really is worth the extra cost.

I also think that off-peak demand can be stimulated by simply providing more services!!! Afternoon and late evening services are appalling on most lines.. no wonder everyone tries to travel at peak time!
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Unread 10-05-2006, 14:54   #18
Colm Donoghue
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al,
you can't have it every way for the low fares.
if you want to travel to Dundalk at 5pm, you are gonna pay the rack rate( and possibly stand a lot of the way too)
Do you want the ticket seller to say "you can get a later train for a better price or go now for the normal fare"

or if it was at 10am sell you a ticket with a reservation for the next enterprise or one at half past midday or whenever they go (but off peak)

You can't have massive over capacity, you have to decide how much capacity is reasonable. assuming Cork are gonna get to an All Ireland or Munster are gonna have a big game in Dublin once a year. say an extra 10,000 passengers would travel by train if there was capacity. Mark has said the capacity of a cde set is ~340. You would need 30 sets to carry that many people. not feasible.
Capacity has to be set somewhere. More than where it is now for some services definitely, but short of infinte capacity. These things are usually analysed by probability, using a poisson distribution. These tail off and you decide how much of the tail to sacrifice. If you provide enough capacity for the maximum possible number of users, you will lose money because the days there is full usage will not pay for the cost of buying the stock.


Off peak services should be improved alright. deciding when off peak starts is a problem too. for me I've loads of services from 4:45 til 6:15 then one train an hour till last train.
I also got stuck in Dun Laoighaire on St patricks night for a while with the 30 mins between trains, having just missed a DART( and going for a quick pint to wait, rinse and repeat) . luas has this right because people know they'll be waiting longer for the ticket machine than for the luas.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 15:05   #19
Mark Gleeson
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There be 418 seats in total on a CDE set, 48 first, 30 in the buffet and 340 elsewhere, those 340 are the ones we are interested in. The 42 first class seats on the 17:00 Cork Dublin today are all booked which goes to show its good revenue earning space, the 60 plus first seats on the 7:35 and 16:50 to Belfast all gone as well

You won't get a discount for suburban services as demand is unpredictable a hot day on a Sunday can be enough to require special trains run.

Fundamental capacity problem is daily demand, if you can run a extra train on Friday why not every day. We are luckly that that Sunday is the main day for big events.

The ticket pricing strategy I outlined is already in use
There are unrestricted tickets
There are mid week discounted tickets
There are special fares on extra services which are lower than normal
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Unread 10-05-2006, 15:27   #20
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Quote:
you can't have it every way for the low fares.
if you want to travel to Dundalk at 5pm, you are gonna pay the rack rate( and possibly stand a lot of the way too)
Do you want the ticket seller to say "you can get a later train for a better price or go now for the normal fare"
but why? The point I am trying to make, if we really want to encourage people out of cars this is what we need to do. I'm in Amsterdam right now. Tonight I'm deciding wheter I should visit a friend in Ledien. I'll call while I'm on the Metro home then decide wheter to get off at WTC and switch to an InterCity train. I don't have to book in advance, and I know I'll get the cheapest ticket.. even at 1800.

I take the point about special restrictions on match days or during special events, but I'm talking more about day to day usage. But on that point, as Mark says, given that most of these big events take place at the weekend, I don't see why they can't provide 30 extra sets. Why not use the communter sets from Maynooth, Dundalk etc etc. Not ideal, but would do the job in exceptional circumstances. All it takes is to have a competent rail operator, and someone with the cop-on to organise it.
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