Rail Users Ireland Forum

Go Back   Rail Users Ireland Forum > General Information & Discussion > Events, Happenings and Media
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Unread 24-10-2006, 14:19   #1
Ronald Binge
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 112
Default ESRI advocates Bus based alternatives to rail investment

From the Irish Times today:

Quote:
Bus based alternatives are available in all cases, and will often offer higher frequency than train-based schemes for the same overall volume, better ability to penetrate target markets, as well as lower capital and operating costs
It's like DART, Suburban Rail and Luas never happened...
Ronald Binge is offline  
Unread 24-10-2006, 17:12   #2
Oisin88
Member
 
Oisin88's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 608
Default

Am I allowed use the word "****e" here?

Do these people forget what happened last century when they turned the existing railways and tramways into buses?
Oisin88 is offline  
Unread 24-10-2006, 18:36   #3
Mark
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern line
Posts: 1,311
Default

Do they realise that we NEED all the investment because we are actually playing catch up infrastructure wise now? Did they spend the last 20 years silent while we didnt invest anything?
Mark is offline  
Unread 24-10-2006, 19:28   #4
Dave
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 141
Default

Can anyone tell me why economists fail to see the non monetary benefits of rail based public transport? Is there a module in Irish universities for economics students that teaches them "buses good, trains bad."
Dave is offline  
Unread 24-10-2006, 19:38   #5
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Is there a module in Irish universities for economics students that teaches them "buses good, trains bad."
Sean Barrett lectures it only to commute by rail himself
Mark Gleeson is offline  
Unread 24-10-2006, 20:07   #6
Oisin88
Member
 
Oisin88's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 608
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson
Sean Barrett lectures it only to commute by rail himself
He must want to keep the train all for himself.

I'd like to know his exact thoughts on a morning which he has to take the bus in.
Oisin88 is offline  
Unread 24-10-2006, 21:26   #7
houstyl
New to the board
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 21
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Can anyone tell me why economists fail to see the non monetary benefits of rail based public transport? Is there a module in Irish universities for economics students that teaches them "buses good, trains bad."
To be fair to Barrett (as an ex-student of his) he does acknowledge the non-monetary benefits of railways, he just doesn't see them outweighing the monetary costs by and large in an Irish context, which I wouldn't be inclined to agree with mind. The lack of decent CBA in the Irish transport context doesn't help with dispelling this notion
houstyl is offline  
Unread 25-10-2006, 00:09   #8
Derek Wheeler
Registered user
 
Derek Wheeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kildare
Posts: 1,555
Default

Look at it this way.

If we built dedicated busways as opposed to Luas and invested the balance in fast forwarding the much needed improvements to the existing rail system, would we be better off?

In all fairness, the red and green lines could operate just as effectively with a dedicated busway considering the advancements in "bus" technology.

To play devils advocate some more, whats wrong with considering tunnel technology for dedicated busways aswell?
Derek Wheeler is offline  
Unread 25-10-2006, 00:23   #9
houstyl
New to the board
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 21
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

To play devils advocate some more, whats wrong with considering tunnel technology for dedicated busways aswell?
Works reasonably well with Boston's Silver Line which was built as a cheap alternative to a full-blown new metro line. Where that service falls down though is when it is forced to share with on-street traffic. In an Irish context I couldn't see the dedicated busway being accepted - the culture has always favoured the Dublin Bus model with stops every 50 metres. People accept LUAS and DART stops being hundreds of metres apart but not so with buses.
houstyl is offline  
Unread 25-10-2006, 10:06   #10
Donal Quinn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 267
Default

dissappointing from ESRI

surely one of the biggest benefits of rail(and the bit that does to for me) it its 1) expandability and 2)Predictability

1) without building more track the capacity of any rail system can be enhanced through signalling, longer trains and different rolling stock - has the ESRI seen o'connell st at rush hour? where exactly would the extra busses go?

2) even with bus lanes the variation in how long a bus will take to get from a to b is amazing. two examples - phibsboro to baggot st, from 12 - 45 mins - dublin to galway - 3 - 5 hrs. this is not an issue with trains. and don't get me started on dwell times

surely these issues have to be factored into economic costs...

also on the issue of operating costs
1400 people on a single dart - 1 dart driver
1400 people on 15 buses - 15 bus drivers clogging up the roads
Donal Quinn is offline  
Unread 25-10-2006, 10:20   #11
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

If you actually read the ERSI document it no way as bad as you might think its more or less

Confirm transport projects worth while if so give them high priority

If anyone has done the math will know bus is a useless solution as a primary transport system in a heavily congested city

Problem is everyone seems to have gone all negative despite the fact the information to prove the projects are worth it is in the public domain

Metro has a positive CBA, we know the interconnector combined with other works has a rate of return in the 10-12% window
Mark Gleeson is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 15:50.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.