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Unread 16-02-2018, 10:37   #1
Thomas J Stamp
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Default Ireland 2040 - Rail Elements.

It hasnt been officially announced yet and the websire is down (great start).

http://npf.ie/about/

from listening to the radio this morning and other speculation it could be -
  1. Metro North
  2. DART expansion
  3. Rumours of "surburban rail investment" in Cork/Limerick/Galway
  4. Something about "Light Rail" in Cork
  5. Presumably another re-announcement of DART underground.
What do we think will be in this? Or should be in this?


What will be not in it?
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Unread 16-02-2018, 11:14   #2
comcor
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For Cork, I guess it's a case of extra stations on the existing lines - Carrigtwohill West, Dunkettle, Tivoli, Kilbarry, Monard, Blarney and maybe Ballynoe or Grenagh [these last two would require land around them to get zoned though]. Electrification would be helpful for a better service. Electrify Cork-Mallow and Dublin-Port Laoise and you haven't got that much of a gap in between.

For Galway, it's hard to see much scope except maybe stations in Roscam and Renmore. Those aren't going to do much for most commuters though, so you'd question whether the small numbers who may use it for social visits to the city centre justifies the investment. The rail line is far enough from GMIT and NUIG that buses are likely to be preferable for people going to those. There would also need to be a calculation about whether stopping the train more often would be a disincentive for those living out in Oranmore and Athenry.

Limerick could have a quite nice suburban rail network just by building stations on existing lines and investing in rolling stock that can actually accelerate. They are fortunate that very little of their rail infrastructure was ripped up. Costs would be low, but densities would have to increase hugely to make it operationally viable, as unlike Cork, there are limited existing services that could be asked to make extra stops.

Last edited by comcor : 16-02-2018 at 11:16.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 11:14   #3
ThomasJ
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yeah a few interesting bits alright about this

Quote:
[*]Metro North
Supposedly gone and replaced with Dublin Metro. That will run Swords to Sandyford via Airport. Wonder how this will impact the Green Luas line.

Quote:
[*]DART expansion
Strangely the only area of this i've heard of is Drogheda?

Quote:
[*]Rumours of "surburban rail investment" in Cork/Limerick/Galway
This would be good news. Certainly Galway Commuter would have been better than the WRC

Quote:
[*]Something about "Light Rail" in Cork
Another bit of positive news if it happens

Quote:
[*]Presumably another re-announcement of DART underground.
This i'm worried about. I'm worried they may be using the PPT in place of this. Is it true as well if this happens Hazelhatch won't get DART services as the tunnel is not compatible?
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Unread 16-02-2018, 11:40   #4
comcor
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Is there any possibility of electrification for Dublin-Cork/Limerick or Dublin-Belfast?

Timing electrification to coincide with the end of life of the 201s would make sense.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 12:13   #5
James Shields
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Metro North/Dublin Metro: I always thought terminating at Stephen's Green was a short sighted plan, so extending South makes sense. I assume it can't be taking over the Green line, as if it was, the destination would be Cherrywood or even Brey. However Sandyford seems an odd destination, as it's hard to see a route that doesn't shadow the Green line. I would have thought Harold's Cross, Terenure and out towards Firhouse and Tallaght would have been a sensible option.

DART Expansion: I see mention of Drogheda and Maynooth, but no mention of the Kildare line.

DART Underground: No mention that I've seen. I saw some options for a "cut price interconnector", including a tunnel from Heuston terminating under Pearse, which would seem to miss the point to me.

Electrification of Belfast/Cork/Limerick: I certainly think this should be in a 23 year infrastructure plan, and I would see it as essential for meeting our climate change commitments, but I very much doubt we'll see anything with so much foresight.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 12:19   #6
Mark Gleeson
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Grapevine has been looking at Metro tie in somewhere near Beachwood, timing issue due development of the Irish Nationwide block on Grand Parade, they need to lock this down ASAP if going ahead as a deep basement could cause issues

DART undergound is all but sunk thanks in no small part to the last decade of poor management and union infighting

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 16-02-2018 at 12:26.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 13:25   #7
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So is the proposal for Metro and Luas to share tracks? My understanding of the term "Metro" is total segregation from other forms of transport. I think the number of road crossings on the Green line alignment would make it problematic for a Metro route. Having to intersperse Metro trains with Green line trams would strike me as unworkable, and would severely limit the speed and frequency of the Metro service.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 13:30   #8
Jamie2k9
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A second metro route which includes Heuston stop or even terminus in the area would be a far better spend than DU. I fully get the benefits of DU but is two different underground systems really necessary.

Quote:
Is there any possibility of electrification for Dublin-Cork/Limerick or Dublin-Belfast?

Timing electrification to coincide with the end of life of the 201s would make sense.
Well you could in theory be waiting 20+ years for that based on 071 class.

I hope IE (NTA) are monitoring the roll out Hitachi Class 801 (EMU) and 802 (BMMU) across mainlines in the UK which appears to be a good train overall. Cannot see full electrification of a route been completed end to end for a long time and bi mode will be needed.
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Luas to Finglas/Poolbeg are pretty much straight forward projects. Lucan would be a very good addition and take pressure off the Red Line between Heuston-Connolly.

Quote:
So is the proposal for Metro and Luas to share tracks? My understanding of the term "Metro" is total segregation from other forms of transport. I think the number of road crossings on the Green line alignment would make it problematic for a Metro route. Having to intersperse Metro trains with Green line trams would strike me as unworkable, and would severely limit the speed and frequency of the Metro service.
That media proposal a few weeks ago could never work impossible.

Quote:
Or should be in this?
An attempt to add third rail to part of Northern Line and improve DART/Commuter/Enterprise.

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 16-02-2018 at 13:53.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 13:37   #9
comcor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Shields View Post
So is the proposal for Metro and Luas to share tracks? My understanding of the term "Metro" is total segregation from other forms of transport. I think the number of road crossings on the Green line alignment would make it problematic for a Metro route. Having to intersperse Metro trains with Green line trams would strike me as unworkable, and would severely limit the speed and frequency of the Metro service.
There are some examples out there where it has been achieved like when the Rotterdam Metro was extended to The Hague and some of the sections in the suburbs of The Hague were shared between The Hague's trams and Rotterdam's metros, but that section only has a metro every 10 minutes, which is not really metro frequency. It is certainly far from desirable.

See departure boards here, where RET is a Rotterdam Metro and HTM is a tram from The Hague

https://9292.nl/en/den-haag/tramhalt...n-laan-van-noi
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Unread 16-02-2018, 13:51   #10
James Shields
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DART Underground is not surprising given the shenanigans over the last few years, but it's largely engineered by the government's starving IE of funds.

Metro/Luas interoperation: I guess you could have the majority of Metro trains turn back at Stephen's Green. However, on the route planner map it starts to look an awful like the London Underground's Northern Line, which is likely to be split into two separate lines in the future to finally solve its problems.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 14:08   #11
Mark Gleeson
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The plan for the Metro is basically the Metro north plan continuing underneath the Harcourt Street line and then resurfaces at Beechwood

Two options
1. Dual running (completely doable), Metro the Sandyford and Luas onwards
2. Luas has a terminus at Beachwood and runs to Broombridge/Finglas

In both cases the lines will be physically connected

Its starting to look a lot like Cologne and Bonn with its not sure if I'm a tram or metro setup
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Unread 16-02-2018, 14:12   #12
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Grapevine report electrification to Hazelhatch is in the doc

2 billion for Dublin heavy rail.
Electrification is only 200-250 million
Rolling stock 600-800 million
I've got a billion left?

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 16-02-2018 at 14:20.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 14:19   #13
Jamie2k9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
The plan for the Metro is basically the Metro north plan continuing underneath the Harcourt Street line and then resurfaces at Beechwood

Two options
1. Dual running (completely doable), Metro the Sandyford and Luas onwards
2. Luas has a terminus at Beachwood and runs to Broombridge/Finglas

In both cases the lines will be physically connected

Its starting to look a lot like Cologne and Bonn with its not sure if I'm a tram or metro setup
So taking the cheap option, when has it ever worked before!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Grapevine report electrification to Hazelhatch is in the doc
Its a start but is it worth it, DMU to Hatch-EMU to PPT-DMU and EMU to GCD.

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 16-02-2018 at 14:23.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 14:51   #14
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Is there any reason the PPT line couldn't be electrified? Is the headroom that tight? They managed to get overhead lines into the tunnels to Greystones, which seem pretty tight. To my casual observation the PPT seems luxurious by comparison.

Regarding the Interconnector/DART Underground, I'd rather see it left out of the plan than done wrong. I'm hopeful that we'll eventually get a government who actually care about rail and will resurrect it. If a budget interconnector was built on the cheap and wasn't up to spec, we'd probably never get another chance to fix it.
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Unread 16-02-2018, 14:55   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
I've got a billion left?
Feel like spending it on some passing loops so that InterCities and longer-distance commuter trains can pass Darts?
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Unread 16-02-2018, 15:02   #16
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The map on page 55 of the strategy document refers mentions that all of the DART lines will use hybrid Diesel/Electricity trains,
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Unread 16-02-2018, 15:22   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Shields View Post
Is there any reason the PPT line couldn't be electrified? Is the headroom that tight? They managed to get overhead lines into the tunnels to Greystones, which seem pretty tight. To my casual observation the PPT seems luxurious by comparison.
.
Its the road bridge at the Heuston end that is a problem and you can't dig down due the Liffey bridge

The tunnel is fairly tall but has a strange kind of profile so not great for tall containers but won't be an issue for OHLE
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Unread 16-02-2018, 16:03   #18
James Shields
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Is that the Chapelizod Bypass bridge? That would be a problem whether the line is going to the PPT or into Heuston Station (or for any future mainline electrification). Admittedly it would be avoided by an Interconnector surfacing at Inchicore.

Doesn't sound like an insurmountable problem. Maybe just expensive?
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Unread 16-02-2018, 16:15   #19
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Conyngham Rd is the problem

I would be confident the Chapelizod bypass bridges would be high enough, but there is plenty of space either side to drop the track if needed

So where did 2 billion go in Dublin rail

Electrify 250
New fleet 600-800
New depot 50
New train control centre 50
KRP2 (4 tracks Inchicore onwards) 150?
Level cross elimination?

The real problem here is short term planning means long term cost. The new plans require electrification of Heuston station (which will be painful and the Phoenix park route and possibly 4 tracks down the gullet section which has been advised against. The original plan required no works inwards from Inchicore
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Unread 16-02-2018, 16:31   #20
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Could they not just use the hybrids as diesel on the heuston /ppt side
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