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Unread 13-07-2016, 16:36   #21
James Howard
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Given the changes in commuting patterns over the the last 10 to 15 years, surely there is an argument for increasing the zones out to Portlaoise / Longford / Dundalk. Didn't there used to be medium, large and giant hops years ago?

It is getting really quite seriously stupid to have to pay for a complete extra Dublin bus or Luas pass if your journey can't be completed on the heavy rail system. How this is justifiable is beyond me and it is a big reason for people making unnecessary car commutes.

It is the same argument as for the concert specials - we don't need proper fare integration (LEAP is not fare integration) because nobody uses multi-mode outside the Short Hop zone. AS an example, the Longford commuter service could be massively improved at zero cost to the taxpayer by simply allowing passholders free access to Bus Eireann expressway busses yet this is impossible because this is a "commercial" service.
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Unread 13-07-2016, 17:38   #22
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Given the changes in commuting patterns over the the last 10 to 15 years, surely there is an argument for increasing the zones out to Portlaoise / Longford / Dundalk. Didn't there used to be medium, large and giant hops years ago?

It is getting really quite seriously stupid to have to pay for a complete extra Dublin bus or Luas pass if your journey can't be completed on the heavy rail system. How this is justifiable is beyond me and it is a big reason for people making unnecessary car commutes.

It is the same argument as for the concert specials - we don't need proper fare integration (LEAP is not fare integration) because nobody uses multi-mode outside the Short Hop zone. AS an example, the Longford commuter service could be massively improved at zero cost to the taxpayer by simply allowing passholders free access to Bus Eireann expressway busses yet this is impossible because this is a "commercial" service.
While you'd have grounds for an argument with regard to a
combined Rail/BE PSO ticket option, expecting it to be free is a bit much.

As for Expressway what possible grounds could you have for expecting free travel on an unsubsidised commercial operation?

That's like expecting as a rail passenger free travel to/from Dundalk on Matthews Coaches.
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Unread 13-07-2016, 20:26   #23
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Didn't there used to be medium, large and giant hops years ago?
There were indeed and the zonal map was published in the national Bus Éireann timetable book.

In terms of rail the outer limit of the Giant Hop (zone) was Mullingar with Maynooth at the start of the Short Hop (out of interest the corresponding Giant Hop outermost points on the bus corridors in that general area were Castlepollard, Kilbeggan and Virginia).

On the Northern Line Balbriggan, Gormanston, Drogheda and Dundalk were the outer stations of the Short, Medium, Long and Giant Hops respectively.

On the Kildare/Cork line Newbridge was in Long Hop with Kildare marking the outer Long Hop boundary. Carlow, Portlaoise & Tullamore were the outermost Giant Hop stations.

On the Rosslare Line Kilcoole, Wicklow and Gorey were the outer stations of the Short, Long and Giant Hops respectively.

Talking of Kilcoole it (not Greystones) is the true outpost of the Short Hop and it is disappointing that there is no validator there despite a Leap Card fare being advertised as available on the IÉ site.

What year will this be sorted out by? It's hardly an unreasonable ask.
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Unread 14-07-2016, 21:32   #24
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Pretty sure the system has no way of know you've left your P2P zone, and won't charge you. Certainly there have been times I haven't tagged off within Drogheda-Lansdowne Road and nothing has happened.

When you say validators "only has validators for a few hours", unless Sallins does something very different to other stations, the validators are available all the time, just with the doors open. You should always tag on when using a P2P ticket, otherwise your ticket won't show up on the RPU checkers. However, as far as I can tell, not tagging off incurs no penalty.

James
Kildare has validators operation when the station is staffed. Many evenings, it is not staffed and the validators are behind closed doors, as they are at Sallins and Newbridge. As well, one of gatse is often left open and people just walk through without tag-on. This always happens when the staff are working with a freight train.
Unlike SHZ stations, there are no non-gate validators at Sallins/Newbridge/Kildare so tagging off is not available at all times.

I'm not talking about using cash (epurse) outside the SHZ. What I'm asking is, you tag on at Pearse, go to Bray but you have a P2P to Drogheda. When you tag off at Bray, are you then charged the cash fare from the epurse? And more importantly, if you tag on at Pearse, travel to Drogheda, don't tag-off, are you charged a cash fare do does it assume since you have a P2P that it is what's used?

Perhaps adding P2P to Leap wasn't such a wise move?
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Unread 18-07-2016, 12:48   #25
Mark Gleeson
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As of this morning, we are go for Kildare - GCD.

Track and signalling is complete.

The two remaining unknowns
1. Fares
2. Platform CIS systems, will be the first time for a scheduled service that crosses from the mainline-suburban CTC with CIS on both sides

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 18-07-2016 at 12:53.
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Unread 18-07-2016, 13:05   #26
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As of this morning, we are go for Kildare - GCD.

Track and signalling is complete.

The two remaining unknowns
1. Fares
2. Platform CIS systems, will be the first time for a scheduled service that crosses from the mainline-suburban CTC with CIS on both sides
Driver training may still be ongoing also.
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Unread 18-07-2016, 13:06   #27
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Kildare has validators operation when the station is staffed. Many evenings, it is not staffed and the validators are behind closed doors, as they are at Sallins and Newbridge. As well, one of gatse is often left open and people just walk through without tag-on. This always happens when the staff are working with a freight train.
Unlike SHZ stations, there are no non-gate validators at Sallins/Newbridge/Kildare so tagging off is not available at all times.

I'm not talking about using cash (epurse) outside the SHZ. What I'm asking is, you tag on at Pearse, go to Bray but you have a P2P to Drogheda. When you tag off at Bray, are you then charged the cash fare from the epurse? And more importantly, if you tag on at Pearse, travel to Drogheda, don't tag-off, are you charged a cash fare do does it assume since you have a P2P that it is what's used?

Perhaps adding P2P to Leap wasn't such a wise move?
If you go to Bray from Pearse and tag on and off it will use the epurse.

If you get on at Pearse and don't tag off it'll assume you're using the point to point ticket.
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Unread 18-07-2016, 13:35   #28
Jamie2k9
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Driver training may still be ongoing also.
Believe Connolly-GCD but it won't take long to clear them.
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Unread 18-07-2016, 14:32   #29
Kilocharlie
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All we need now is a timetable...
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Unread 18-07-2016, 14:35   #30
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If you go to Bray from Pearse and tag on and off it will use the epurse.

If you get on at Pearse and don't tag off it'll assume you're using the point to point ticket.
Suppose you get tag on at Bray, change at GCD and don't tag off at your p2p station?
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Unread 18-07-2016, 15:09   #31
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All we need now is a timetable...
Heuston works not scheduled to finish until 5 November, hard to see anything before that and at that they should wait until 11 December to introduce a new schedule and bring the mess of producing a timetable whenever you feel like to an end.

People lived without PPT for years a few more weeks won't do any harm.

Kilocharlie do you plan to use the service, looking at an 60-65 minutes Kildare-GCD based on a test 40 minute schedule put into JP from Adamtwon-GCD with a 40 minute time. That is if it goes to Kildare.

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 18-07-2016 at 15:15.
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Unread 18-07-2016, 15:12   #32
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Heuston side works have no impact as full service to Hazelhatch is possible on all days of work, should in theory be full to Newbridge.

October was the commitment

Driver training was held up until the final track layout in Grand Canal Dock, Heuston Connolly is already covered as a normal route for anyone who has entered the driving grade in the last decade
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Unread 18-07-2016, 15:16   #33
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Heuston side works have no impact as full service to Hazelhatch is possible on all days of work, should in theory be full to Newbridge.

October was the commitment

Driver training was held up until the final track layout in Grand Canal Dock, Heuston Connolly is already covered as a normal route for anyone who has entered the driving grade in the last decade
Perhaps freeing up stock could be problematic at times, Mark IV back on Cork not going help a lot.
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Unread 18-07-2016, 15:49   #34
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Suppose you get tag on at Bray, change at GCD and don't tag off at your p2p station?
Then you will be charged the maximum short hop zone fare.

You would have to tag off at Pearse.

It's your responsibility to have a valid ticket.
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Unread 18-07-2016, 19:17   #35
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Kilocharlie do you plan to use the service, looking at an 60-65 minutes Kildare-GCD based on a test 40 minute schedule put into JP from Adamtwon-GCD with a 40 minute time. That is if it goes to Kildare.
Yes if Kildare is served at least at peak hours. But I'd need to know early Nov for Annual Taxsaver renewal. No good if it terminates at Newbridge.
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Unread 19-07-2016, 09:05   #36
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Then you will be charged the maximum short hop zone fare.

You would have to tag off at Pearse.

It's your responsibility to have a valid ticket.
While this discussion is somewhat academic for most, I suspect that a court might take the view that a valid leap card with adequate credit and a valid point to point ticket is indeed a valid ticket. Surely the system should simply take the maximum leap fare or more intelligently the fare to the point where the point to point ticket becomes valid.

It s not always the customer's fault if a system is poorly designed and easily confused. I have both a leap card and a separarate Irish Rail smart card and frankly wouldn't trust the current setup to properly distinguish between the two and would never put value on the Irish Rail smart card even if it allowed me !
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Unread 19-07-2016, 10:10   #37
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Yes if Kildare is served at least at peak hours. But I'd need to know early Nov for Annual Taxsaver renewal. No good if it terminates at Newbridge.
Yes I have more or less the same problem. I work on Wood Quay, and commute to and from Hazelhatch, I also use the feeder bus to / from Celbridge. Trains serving Connolly / Grand Canal Dock are no use to me. I would like to see a provisional timetable published before I renew my Annual Taxsaver Rail - this date is about mid October in my workplace. Otherwise I shall have to travel by Dublin Bus. To be honest I have been travelling to my workplace since 1997 by train as I prefer that mode of transport - I also enjoy the walk to my office to / from Heuston each day.
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Unread 19-07-2016, 10:54   #38
James Howard
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It s not always the customer's fault if a system is poorly designed and easily confused.
Most successful businesses adopt a mantra of "The customer is always right". If the customer is making mistakes due to over-complex systems, the systems should be simplified. It is absurd to have a system that requires that the passenger get off the train to validate their ticket in Pearse.

Leap is just a ludicrously complicated mess in terms of managing tickets. It is crazy that you need to be able to keep up to six active tickets on your card. The whole model needs to be scrapped and replaced with a proper zonal system.
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Unread 19-07-2016, 11:07   #39
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Then you will be charged the maximum short hop zone fare.

You would have to tag off at Pearse.
If I get the 16:50 from Bray to Drogheda, how would I tag off at Pearse? Is the system not smart enough to recognise when I tag off at Drogheda and charge me only for the part my P2P ticket doesn't cover?

James
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Unread 19-07-2016, 11:07   #40
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While this discussion is somewhat academic for most, I suspect that a court might take the view that a valid leap card with adequate credit and a valid point to point ticket is indeed a valid ticket. Surely the system should simply take the maximum leap fare or more intelligently the fare to the point where the point to point ticket becomes valid.

It s not always the customer's fault if a system is poorly designed and easily confused. I have both a leap card and a separarate Irish Rail smart card and frankly wouldn't trust the current setup to properly distinguish between the two and would never put value on the Irish Rail smart card even if it allowed me !
Well I was just pointing out what the customer *should* do to be charged the correct fare.
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