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Unread 17-06-2006, 11:19   #101
MrX
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Doesnt sound like it's anything to do with the coaches though. It's not a 201 that has seen enterprise service is it ?
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Unread 17-06-2006, 12:12   #102
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The 201's (expertly bought by 'experts' and then misused by 'experts') could throw a spanner into the CDE sets. The Mk4 should possibly have been built for 071-compatible operation too (i gather there's some reason you can't do an 071 on a Mk4). CIE seem hell bent on removing all orange-colour-vintage coaches and locos at the expense of everything else and have this DMU "like it or lump it" obsession.
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Unread 17-06-2006, 13:06   #103
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I don't see why the 201s will be any less reliable on the CDE than they have been on the MK3 sets that have been running on that line for years.

The 201 is *not* providing HEP for the CDE sets. They have their power needs met by their lead coach's generator set. The enterprise is the only train with HEP provided by the loco.

The 201s haven't been at all unreliable on non-enterprise runs.

I doubt this is anything more than a freak incident.

I haven't seen an 071 operating a Cork-Dublin MK3 set in a VERY long time.

The Intercity DMUs *should* be a good sollution. Using 29000 commuter DMUs on intercity routes has seriously tarnished their reputation!

Last edited by MrX : 17-06-2006 at 13:09.
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Unread 17-06-2006, 21:21   #104
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The 071 class cannot run the CDE because they aren't capable of push-pull operation. It would be a simple matter to move the standard kit from a dead 121 or whatever but IE doesn't want to know about it. I think there's other stuff with the coupler as well, presumably age and horsepower (both worse on the 071) would also come into play.

Quote:
Trying to compare the CDE to the 29Ks is like trying to compare a luxury long distance coach to a city articulated "bendy bus".
But if the company that made the bendy-bus made one with an uber-crappy ride and then built the luxury coach with a similar suspension, you'd have concerns too, right?

Last edited by sean : 17-06-2006 at 21:24.
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Unread 18-06-2006, 11:41   #105
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Nothing wrong with the 201s failures will happen anyway regardless of what engines on the train and for all my travels in Ireland ive never yet had a loco fail on me. DMUs on the other hand.......anyway this thread is about the CDEs and apart from the ride, and even that isnt all that bad, and im sure it can be fixed soon enough, the trains are otherwise near perfect, and once theyve finish messing around with the ride im sure the result will be a train that is a pleasure (even if your not a locosexual ) to travel on and something that we should be happy with and dare i say proud of.
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Unread 18-06-2006, 20:20   #106
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I was on a mark 3 from Cork to Dublin a few days ago and honestly, without agenda, the ride wasn't very good at all on the bumpy bits. It jolted enough to spill my coffee at one stage.

I really didn't find the CDE ride any worse. Again, I'd reckon the major difference is that the CDE coaches are *EXTREMELY* quiet and when you do hear and feel a bump, you notice it more.

There is certainly a difference in how the two trains ride, but I wouldn't actually say that the CDE is worse than the MK3.

The CDE felt smooth, solid and was exceptionally quiet. It is a "harder" suspension though. The MK3 can tend to be noisey, creaky and do quite a bit of jolting on poor track. It also doesn't brake as smoothly as the CDE.

The suspensions are possibly a little harder, although I'm sure that the tweaks will take care of that.

However, I don't think any suspension system can really iron out the fact that some of the tracks are quite badly worn and need replacement. Both the MK3 and the CDE run fantastically well on decent track.

Quote:
Quote:
Trying to compare the CDE to the 29Ks is like trying to compare a luxury long distance coach to a city articulated "bendy bus".
But if the company that made the bendy-bus made one with an uber-crappy ride and then built the luxury coach with a similar suspension, you'd have concerns too, right?
This is certainly not the case, the CDE rides quite well and things can only improve as tweaks are done. It seems to have a pretty decent suspension system.

There's absolutely nothing in common between the CDE and the 29000 ride or their respective suspension systems other than that they're both made by CAF. The Commuter fleet's built to a totally different spec and wouldn't have 125mph bogies. Having the commuters on intercity duty's ridiculous. Perhaps Dustin the Turkey wasn't too far from reality during his presidential campaign back a few years ago. One of his main manefesto items was to "Extend the DART to Dingle"... seems IE have pretty much done that!

On-board, it's right up there with the best of the newest high speed stock in Europe. Very plush and the decor is excellent.

Last edited by MrX : 18-06-2006 at 20:23.
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Unread 18-06-2006, 22:09   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrX
There's absolutely nothing in common between the CDE and the 29000 ride or their respective suspension systems other than that they're both made by CAF.
That was enough for me to be seriously concerned intially, given the way the 29K rides I was afraid CAF was just using some crappy rehashed off the shelf design meant for hi quality tracks on everything.

Thankfully I've been proven wrong.
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Unread 18-06-2006, 22:17   #108
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Quite a few of us know a thing or two about ride since we have had bad experiences, but joe public don't care

Will the average passenger be happy with the ride of the new Cork Dublin train, yes, the fine details are not critical
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Unread 18-06-2006, 22:42   #109
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Mark's spot on. The ride's not perfect, but neither are the tracks! Joe Public, and I include myself in that, are very impressed with the train and really couldn't care less about the ride. It's more than acceptable and certainly smooth enough to write, eat, use your laptop in comfort.

Personally, I found it a lot easier to walk along the CDE.. The MK3s can throw you off balance now and then.

The only time I saw members of the public getting worried about ride quality was on a MK2 some years ago. It went into some kind of a strange and rather disconcerting vibration. It was enough to cause everyone to get up and leave the coach. I think it had some serious suspension problem.
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Unread 01-07-2006, 13:36   #110
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Default CDE P.I.S. does a "DART"

I was on the CDE this morning (9 am Dublin-Cork) and noticed a few problems.

1) The train departed >20 mins late. There as an apology announcement explaining that they were waiting on a signal.

2) The PIS system wasn't activated properly. The maps were working showing the train's position and the train was doing its default "welcome" message explaining that it was an express service and no smoking etc. It contained no information about the journey, no destination, times etc.

It also did a few announcements explaining that there was a snack bar at the rear of the train etc. although at least once it said it was at the front ... seems someone's pressing the wrong button.

The driver then made unintelligible door closing announcements which were basically deafening engine noise with something mumbled. It sounds like the 201 has its microphone mounted deep within the engine room. If the cab's really that noisy, I'd say we'll have train driver deafness claims in a few years time.

Anyway, I hope it's a minor technical glitch and not how things will be on the CDE from now on.

They didn't even bother to announce half of the stations.

On arrival at Cork it was announced as "we will shortly be arriving at Cork Station.. please mind the gap"

The manual announcements made by the guard/train manager and catering staff were clear enough though. Far clearer than they usually are on the MK3, the levels were set correctly.

Last edited by MrX : 01-07-2006 at 13:41.
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Unread 01-07-2006, 16:18   #111
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So in terms of the general cabin atmosphere, looking at the various photos incl lostcarpark's below, is the CDE a little more 'budget fitted' than the Enterprise?



No doubt the flash in the pics doesn't help matters, but one gets the impression that the acoustics and general comfort levels (ride quality aside) are that little bit harsher than its Northern Line equivalent?
The Enterprise's carpet-clad interior, tailored lighting and (apparently) deeper seating would appear to offer a more comfortable, muted experience - would this be the case?

Also what are these Mitsui intercity DMUs - mentioned all the time, but I've never got round to asking what they are or look like . Are they on order or do we have them already? Sorry for going OT a bit...
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Unread 01-07-2006, 17:42   #112
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Quote:
So in terms of the general cabin atmosphere, looking at the various photos incl lostcarpark's below, is the CDE a little more 'budget fitted' than the Enterprise?
This is just my persional opinion, but I would have to say the CDE fit-out is absolutely top notch. I would put it well ahead of the Enterprise. I find the Enterprise coaches very dark and depressing, and the colour scheme makes me wonder was the designer suffering from depression.

The CDE coaches are bright and airy. There is a fair bit of plastic, but it's not nearly as clinical as the 2900s. The colours are generally uplifting and the first impression I got when I walked in was "oh, this is a bit posh". And we weren't even in the first class section.

The only complaints I have were the lack of litter bins (not a problem if cleaning staff pass through the train regularly), and the lack of anywhere to plug a laptop in.
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Unread 01-07-2006, 19:46   #113
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The photos definitely don't do it justice. It's a very impressive train interior when you actually get inside it and there's no feel of "cheap" about it. Everything's top notch. The colour scheme's definitely a whole lot brighter than the Enterprise, but that's not a bad thing. It's much more suitable for the generally dismal Irish climate. Likewise, there's a bluish daylight tint to the windows that seems to create the perfect balance of shade and brightness. It's a bit like mildly blue tinted sunglasses (shades). The Enterprise and the MK3 Internationals (Cu na Mara) are both absolutely depressing trains to be on board. The enterprise seems to suffer from french beige interior design syndrome. It's just dull and dark and poorly lit.

Don't forget the CDE was designed by Design Triangle, the same people who styled the heathrow express.

Heathrow express visualisation: The CDE has quit a similar feel, just more "intercity"

Link to CDE prototype (without the new livery)
http://www.designtriangle.com/images/Picture_3328.jpg


The original styling sketches in old livery.

Design triangle do pretty much everything right down to the carpet and and seating material patterns. It's a very very classy job. The CityGold coaches are absolutely stunning. They're nicer than the TGV business class stuff I've been on in France and a whole lot better styled than any of the new UK stuff.

The enterprise didn't really get that kind of styling.

The MK3 internationals seem to have been designed for a MUCH brigher climate. The window tints are far too strong and the lighting's not a whole lot better than a candle. They could do with an entirely new lighting system and having their tinted windows replaced.

Graham,

The Intercity DMUs (Diesel Multiple Units) are on order, no one has seen one yet. They're the signle biggest order of trains in CIE's history and, when the full fleet arrives, will replace pretty much everything except he CDE and Enterprise. i.e. they'll operate on all other mainlines.

They're ordered from Mistui of Japan who have subcontracted to Tokyu car (japan) and Rotem (South Korea). Iarnrod Eireann has put in a pretty high specification, similar to the CDE although with a 160km/h design max speed.
ínitially 120 of them at a cost of €262 --- the order was then extended to include sufficient cars for the Sligo and Roslaire lines too.

According to the Rotem website, delivery's expected to commence this November.

http://www.rotem.co.kr/
http://www.tokyu-car.co.jp/eng/index.html


Further info about the CDE can be found at :http://www.caf.net/ingles/productos/...d=611&sec=desc

Also, while it may not be carpet-clad, it is well carpeted throughout.

Does anyone have enterprise interior pics to contrast?

Last edited by MrX : 02-07-2006 at 12:57.
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Unread 02-07-2006, 20:30   #114
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I'll try and get some during the week.

Thank you very much for all of that MrX, and lostcarpark – most enlightening

Regarding the CDE interior, I shall take your word for it so until I have an opportunity to use it! Certainly on closer inspection the seating looks very comfortable (if a bit frumpy in design), and the plastic fittings are very stylishly moulded – the diffused lighting also quite elegant. What’s the lighting like at seat level though, given there’s no over-seat or over-window lighting?

I generally tend to prefer darker interiors, but that’s just a personal thing, probably formed by exposure to the 2900s! Suppose I have an affinity with it from morning commuting – the Enterprise has got a dark cabin interior perfectly suited to early-morning sleeping, as everyone who uses it knows! And the carpet everywhere generats a more muted, softer experience. But yes the Enterprise can feel very depressing, though bizarrely more on a sunny day than a dull one! In overcast or wet/cold conditions it’s nice to get into the cosy dark Enterprise with its warm central tungsten lighting, while it’s more depressing on a sunny day to have to board into gloom.

However the CDE more than makes up for the slightly harder interior with good design; the bright interior is well served with crisp, clean lines – lines the Enterprise patches over with shadows . Those light blue curtains will get manky rather quickly though won’t they? Does the CDE have carpet up to the windows by the way?

The Heathrow Express is simply stunning – wow! Is that a first class carriage, or standard? An excellent firm judging by their site. More of this please.
By the way, how is the CDE first class marketed? – plain ‘first class’ or the more PC ‘First Plus’?

Thanks for the DMU information – given Rotem’s site it would appear that these intercitys are the highest spec DMUs they’ve yet produced, and their most challenging order with dining cars etc too.
So if DMUs, does this mean dreaded underslung engines for our new Intercity fleet? Have engine developments moved on since they lumped us with the 2900s? It would be a disaster if we got anything near what our current DMUs force on patrons, and for the image of rail travel in Ireland. Are DMUs being acquired over push-pulls for flexibility and reliability? – and they now standard stock in Europe for use on such routes?

I see the Indo reported that the final 30 in 2007-8 will be used in the GDA which is good to see, hopefully to offer some relief from the dominance of 2900s in this area – otherwise will the new DMUs be used country-wide to replace the MK II? Will they merely replace them in number or will there be a surplus with this Rotem order?

Thanks! (did a search, but not much info )
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Unread 02-07-2006, 22:45   #115
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Graham,

The CDE interior is pretty much Heathrow Express style but more geared towards intercity than a short hop.

The "First Class" service on the Cork line has been branded CityGold for some years. The Cork MK3 fleet has pretty plush and well designed coaches for CityGold service with similar levels of service to that found on the Enterprise First Plus. The CityGold brand has been retained on the new fleet. The CityGold CDE coaches are extremely plush and very visually impressive inside.

The light levels are excellent through the train, not too bright, not too dark.

Don't forget the Cork line has had IE's best stock on it since the 1980s, the Cork MK3s are excellent coaches and the CityGold coaches are pretty high spec. So the CDE has a lot to live up to!

The Intercity DMUs are due to replace *EVERYTHING* other than the CDE and the Enterprise i.e. the MK2s, the Cravens, and thankfully 29000s on Intercity duties.

The future of the MK3 fleet remains unclear, some may be used to bolster the Enteprise. Don't forget, these are still excellent coaches and are far better technical spec than the enterprise i.e. they actually do operate at 100mph (design speed, like the CDE is 125mph) and overall, they're in decent condntion. The IE fleet of MK3s being quite a bit younger than its British cousins, it dates from 1984-1988.

The existing Cork CityGold sets would really show Enterprise customers what a train should be like! It'd be nice to see them cosmetically refurbished.


The existing MK3 and new CDE business class service :


Gives you an overview of the services on the MK3 citygold sets:
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/our_services/citygold.asp
Including a 3D coach interior view.

Last edited by MrX : 02-07-2006 at 22:56.
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Unread 02-07-2006, 23:13   #116
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Its not a fair comparison to compare a 2900 and the new CDE trainsets, they are two very different trains for very different jobs, one is a high density low speed commuter train the other is a long distance high speed

The CDE coaches and 2900 units have a family connection the NI C3K which shares some of its interior design with the new Cork coaches, there is a 460 hp engine under the floor and its quiet and it rides very very well.

French design trains seem to be dark, bright and airy is the way and if you have a lighting failure we will really appreciate a bright interior

The carpet remains on the floor the walls are plastic. The luggage racks are large and have tinted glass in them, the lighting is good.

You cant really knock it till you have tried it
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Unread 02-07-2006, 23:21   #117
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Not knocking at all Mark - only questioning, not having used one yet.
And no comparision was made with the 2900!

CityGold is of course the first class MrX - doh!
And there was Eddie Hobbs on it only this time last year too

These were all refitted around 1993 or 1994 weren't they?
Excellently fitted, thanks for the pics, which combined with the quality of Mk3 makes for one hell of a service alright. Most certainly they ought to be refurbished - with a new livery and interior fit-out they'd be good to go for another 20 years. Wonderfully comfortable trains - only the windows are uncommonly high are they not? They only real drawback, combined with a lack of window-based aircon as I recall...

As for the new Intercitys, I really do hope the engine problems associated with DMUs up till now have been resolved for this massive order.

Last edited by Graham : 02-07-2006 at 23:23.
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Unread 02-07-2006, 23:30   #118
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Not only that, the CDE and 29000s might share the same manufactuer but they don't share a design team.

The CDE is a Design Triangle product, like the Heathrow Express.

The 29000s were styled and designed by Dolmen in Dublin.
Same people who did the CityGold coaches.

The 29000s are an excellent design in my opinion. the NIR C3Ks would be way over the top for commuter services and would have serious maintenence and cleaning issues.

The key problem with the 29000s is that IE are trying to pass them off as new intercity services in Sligo... it's utter nonsense. The whole process has simply given the whole concept of DMUs a bad name in Ireland.

To get back on topic though:

The CDE interior is, in my opinion, spot on for the Irish climate and landscape! I've travelled on it so far on a very dull day and on a very bright day and it was equally pleasant on both trips. The lights are diffused quite well and you can sleep.

In general, French trains are pretty dull onboard though. Many TGVs are pretty disappointing on board..

e.g.

Last edited by MrX : 02-07-2006 at 23:40.
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Unread 02-07-2006, 23:41   #119
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Frump Central
Can't disagree with you there!

Where other than poor Sligo have the 2900s been inflicted on unsuspecting Intercityers??

CAF's 2900 page:

http://www.caf.net/ingles/productos/...d=451&sec=desc
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Unread 03-07-2006, 01:49   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Frump Central
Can't disagree with you there!

Where other than poor Sligo have the 2900s been inflicted on unsuspecting Intercityers??
1: Rosslare. Was actually a big improvement over the 2700s.
2: Sunday services to Galway and Limerick.
3: Enterprise cover ... which I'm sure you're well aware of.
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