Bus rant - Page 2

Red Alert · 21-02-2006, 19:07

So in that case wouldn't it have made more sense to replace the Mag Card validator with a Smart Card Device which talks to the old Wayfarer 2 system. (After all, the MCV just needs the date, time, route, stage and a program-load facility from the Wayfarer system). That way we've a smart-card approved system, and nobody's really going to use a smart card at the driver position anyway once the system gets off the ground.

The cash vault was in fact triggered on the old system too for the Refund operation. I think the new one may trigger the vault, release the vault and only then print the ticket (slowly), which I'd say is actually the problem but I haven't observed this enough times to check.

British Rail managed to set up their really ancient APTIS rail ticketing system with smart card readers for the Oyster scheme which worked flawlessly and from what I've read with minimal outlay. (The system is currently being decomissioned, because it doesn't work well with a multiple-company-train ticket - which we don't have).

PaulM · 21-02-2006, 19:50

I think the new ticket machines is a giant step backwards, currently I prefer them to the old ones, novelty etc. Rather than these machines they should have began invensting in TVMs, starting in the CC and enforce that you needed a valid ticket before getting on the bus.

I saw this system in London (do they have the same machines on busses there for Oyster) and it seemed to work very smoothly. I'll save that for my next "Why I hate DB" rant.

jlang · 23-02-2006, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by alek smart

Bearing in mind that the Change Ticket has to be acccompanied by the relevant journey ticket for redemption

Is that true? I've been saving my change tickets for several years now - must have nearly 5 euros worth, soon I'd have enough to justify a trip in to the office and now I find out I should have kept the actual tickets as well. Oh poo!

James Shields · 23-02-2006, 07:37

Quote:

I've been saving my change tickets for several years now

Just go in there and kick up a fuss. I've recouped some in the past and I don't remember having the journey tickets. I've managed not to get any for a couple of years so I don't know if that's still the case.

alek smart · 23-02-2006, 13:56

Maith an Fèar LCP..at least you took on board the essential lesson.
An Exact-Fare system SHOULD be just that except in the context of the Irish Republic when it becomes an Exact(ish) Fare system.
Many regular users of Dublin Bus services are now commenting on the rather noticeable boarding delays which have lengthened since the introduction of the TGX Ticket Machine.
The TGX being a Laser Print machine appears to have a very slight delay between Keystroke and Commencement of Printing (CoP).
There are also some individual foibles which when added together amount to substantial EXTRA delay for passengers.

Issuing a Child Ticket involves entering a different sub-menu.
Issuing a Shopper or Excess ticket involves another sub-menu from which Change Tickets Cannot be issued until returning to the main menu.
The change-ticket issuing itself is FAR to slow and is now leading to all manner of verbal disagreement over percieved driver reluctance to issue same.

The current TGX software setup is proving to be less efficient at Platform level though at Management Information level it is far more 21st century than the old WF2 system.

The real problem is with the serious Platform Cash vs Prepaid imbalance which simply exacerbates the individual passenger boarding delay.

The 45% penetration figure for pre-paid tickets on Bus Atha Cliath services is simply TOO low for the type of service which is bening demanded of it.

The TGX introduction programme really demanded a parallell marketing drive to dramatically increase Pre-Paid sales even if that meant using FMCG discount theories....ie..."Buy one Get one Free" et al.

I now believe that Bus Atha Cliath core services require a MINIMUM of 70% Prepaid useage simply to mark time before moving on to next stage which in our "Compromise" centred Republic would realistically be a Maximum of 85% Prepaid coverage.

I have little doubt but that we will see this figure attained BUT it will only be after we have been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century Public Transport world.....The term "Making the Running" simply does not exist in our departmental halls.....

markpb · 23-02-2006, 15:44

It's no surprise that cash is still the dominant ticket type:

Two-trip tickets are no cheaper that their cash alternatives. At the very least they should be 10c cheaper per trip and more widely available.

Ninty-minute tickets can't be bought in less than packs of ten. Why can't you buy them singly?

Daily/weekly tickets are no use to people travelling short distances. I can travel from home to work (1.55 trip) and back five days a week and just match the price of a five day ticket. When I lived closer to work (1.35 trip) weekly tickets even with an extra trip or two, were still more expensive than paying cash.

Montly tickets aren't valid for a month, only for a calendar month. If weekly tickets are valid for 1 week, why isn't a monthly ticket valid for 4 weeks/31 days?

I don't disagree that pre-paid tickets are in the common good, but DB need to provide an incentive to make people change.

Mark Gleeson · 23-02-2006, 15:55

The reason prepay fares are so high is because in the abilty to raise cash fares is limited by the DoT so you increase what you can

First sensible move would be to round all fares to 10cents, this 5 cent thing on nearly all fares massively increases the number of change tickets

Red Alert · 23-02-2006, 16:15

The new TGX system has a thermal (not laser!) printer, but that's no reason in itself why it's as slow as it is. From what I can see now the system has been a foolish cosmetic upgrade. Dublin Bus have never fully explained the situation behind the need for such change. If indeed they had to re-work the software to deal with the Mag Card Validator which according to them won't be around much longer, then it was a double-waste of taxpayer's money.

I would love to know if the TGX was actually tested in-service before being deployed, on a route like the 11 or 46A.

I wonder do the drivers go insane on the School buses at 3.30, when they've got to go into the sub menu 100 times!! They should just configure the 'soft menu' to have the same 10 buttons as the old WF2 system and be done with it. As such we're stuck with this abjectly crap and inefficient system for the sake of a few menus and a pretty customer display, the real thing now is that Dublin Bus need to be hassled to speed it up.

PaulM · 23-02-2006, 16:58

The price of prepaid tickets bothers me too (I should start another thread

) I also fall into that bracket of "ripped off by never having exact change and more expensive to buy prepaid tickets." That is a farce and a half if you ask me. DB should either start giving change again or start selling cheaper prepaid tickets. As it is I feel like I'm getting screwed either way.

CSL · 23-02-2006, 18:58

they won't agree to giving out change again, this I believe was one of the safety points [ anti-theft ]

Red Alert · 23-02-2006, 19:23

it really isn't fair to ask the drivers to give out change tickets. guys used to rob them and demand the whole cash dispenser on pain of a syringe - nobody should have to work in that situation

James Shields · 23-02-2006, 19:37

If they put ticket machines at the busiest stops and programmed them to be able to dispense tickets for future dates, they got get a lot of people to use prepaid tickets without having to change fares at all. The fact that the machines will give change should be enough of a hook on its own.

Most people get the bus from their home to the city in the morning and make the reverse trip in the evening. People could buy their ticket for the trip home and get their ticket for the next morning at the same time.

I do think there should be significant reductions for prepaid tickets, though. Unless you live a long way out weekly/monthly trips just aren't worth it. If we had a proper zone system and you could buy season tickets that covered just the central zones there would be a lot more take-up.

PaulM · 23-02-2006, 19:43

I know why they got rid of change on busses (thought they have it in many other countries).

Here is a hypothetical scenario:

Prepaid tickets cost too much so you use cash.
You have a huge pile of change for bus fare.
Sometimes you don't have sufficient change.
The bus gives you a change ticket, unless you are stuck with those things, notes, then you can't get the bus.*
You NEVER get your money back as the ticket office is only open when you work.

Wait.... That's real life for me.

TVMs at bus stops, cheaper prepaid tickets or change on buses. The current scenario is a rip off and a farce, the look on tourists' faces when they are told they don't get change.

*I thought notes were legal tender, obviously not as I can't use them on the bus.

EDIT: just saw LCP's post. He has the right idea.

alek smart · 24-02-2006, 01:28

Quote "I would love to know if the TGX was actually tested in-service before being deployed, on a route like the 11 or 46A.".

I understand the TGX was trialled on the 747/748 Airlink service which oddly enough still operates in the "OldenTimes" cash handling mode.....so the change ticket speed would never have been flagged.....Hmmmmmmm....

maxheadroom · 24-02-2006, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by alek smart

Quote "I would love to know if the TGX was actually tested in-service before being deployed, on a route like the 11 or 46A.".

I understand the TGX was trialled on the 747/748 Airlink service which oddly enough still operates in the "OldenTimes" cash handling mode.....so the change ticket speed would never have been flagged.....Hmmmmmmm....

AFAIK, it was also tried on the 49 out of Ringsend Garage for several months before moving all buses out of Ringsend over to the new system. I'm not sure, but I think I heard they were trialling a smart card at the time too.

Red Alert · 24-02-2006, 22:06

Yeah I think I heard of the smart card too. If I remember Martin Cullen may have been on the promo shoot trying it?

23-02-2006, 19:43	#33
PaulM Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 826	I know why they got rid of change on busses (thought they have it in many other countries). Here is a hypothetical scenario: Prepaid tickets cost too much so you use cash. You have a huge pile of change for bus fare. Sometimes you don't have sufficient change. The bus gives you a change ticket, unless you are stuck with those things, notes, then you can't get the bus.* You NEVER get your money back as the ticket office is only open when you work. Wait.... That's real life for me. TVMs at bus stops, cheaper prepaid tickets or change on buses. The current scenario is a rip off and a farce, the look on tourists' faces when they are told they don't get change. I thought notes were legal tender, obviously not as I can't use them on the bus. EDIT: just saw LCP's post. He has the right idea. Last edited by PaulM : 23-02-2006 at 19:46.*

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21-02-2006, 19:07	#21
Red Alert Regular Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 33	So in that case wouldn't it have made more sense to replace the Mag Card validator with a Smart Card Device which talks to the old Wayfarer 2 system. (After all, the MCV just needs the date, time, route, stage and a program-load facility from the Wayfarer system). That way we've a smart-card approved system, and nobody's really going to use a smart card at the driver position anyway once the system gets off the ground. The cash vault was in fact triggered on the old system too for the Refund operation. I think the new one may trigger the vault, release the vault and only then print the ticket (slowly), which I'd say is actually the problem but I haven't observed this enough times to check. British Rail managed to set up their really ancient APTIS rail ticketing system with smart card readers for the Oyster scheme which worked flawlessly and from what I've read with minimal outlay. (The system is currently being decomissioned, because it doesn't work well with a multiple-company-train ticket - which we don't have).

21-02-2006, 19:50	#22
PaulM Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 826	I think the new ticket machines is a giant step backwards, currently I prefer them to the old ones, novelty etc. Rather than these machines they should have began invensting in TVMs, starting in the CC and enforce that you needed a valid ticket before getting on the bus. I saw this system in London (do they have the same machines on busses there for Oyster) and it seemed to work very smoothly. I'll save that for my next "Why I hate DB" rant.

23-02-2006, 13:56	#25
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Maith an Fèar LCP..at least you took on board the essential lesson. An Exact-Fare system SHOULD be just that except in the context of the Irish Republic when it becomes an Exact(ish) Fare system. Many regular users of Dublin Bus services are now commenting on the rather noticeable boarding delays which have lengthened since the introduction of the TGX Ticket Machine. The TGX being a Laser Print machine appears to have a very slight delay between Keystroke and Commencement of Printing (CoP). There are also some individual foibles which when added together amount to substantial EXTRA delay for passengers. Issuing a Child Ticket involves entering a different sub-menu. Issuing a Shopper or Excess ticket involves another sub-menu from which Change Tickets Cannot be issued until returning to the main menu. The change-ticket issuing itself is FAR to slow and is now leading to all manner of verbal disagreement over percieved driver reluctance to issue same. The current TGX software setup is proving to be less efficient at Platform level though at Management Information level it is far more 21st century than the old WF2 system. The real problem is with the serious Platform Cash vs Prepaid imbalance which simply exacerbates the individual passenger boarding delay. The 45% penetration figure for pre-paid tickets on Bus Atha Cliath services is simply TOO low for the type of service which is bening demanded of it. The TGX introduction programme really demanded a parallell marketing drive to dramatically increase Pre-Paid sales even if that meant using FMCG discount theories....ie..."Buy one Get one Free" et al. I now believe that Bus Atha Cliath core services require a MINIMUM of 70% Prepaid useage simply to mark time before moving on to next stage which in our "Compromise" centred Republic would realistically be a Maximum of 85% Prepaid coverage. I have little doubt but that we will see this figure attained BUT it will only be after we have been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century Public Transport world.....The term "Making the Running" simply does not exist in our departmental halls.....

23-02-2006, 15:44	#26
markpb Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 541	It's no surprise that cash is still the dominant ticket type: Two-trip tickets are no cheaper that their cash alternatives. At the very least they should be 10c cheaper per trip and more widely available. Ninty-minute tickets can't be bought in less than packs of ten. Why can't you buy them singly? Daily/weekly tickets are no use to people travelling short distances. I can travel from home to work (1.55 trip) and back five days a week and just match the price of a five day ticket. When I lived closer to work (1.35 trip) weekly tickets even with an extra trip or two, were still more expensive than paying cash. Montly tickets aren't valid for a month, only for a calendar month. If weekly tickets are valid for 1 week, why isn't a monthly ticket valid for 4 weeks/31 days? I don't disagree that pre-paid tickets are in the common good, but DB need to provide an incentive to make people change.

23-02-2006, 15:55	#27
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The reason prepay fares are so high is because in the abilty to raise cash fares is limited by the DoT so you increase what you can First sensible move would be to round all fares to 10cents, this 5 cent thing on nearly all fares massively increases the number of change tickets

23-02-2006, 16:15	#28
Red Alert Regular Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 33	The new TGX system has a thermal (not laser!) printer, but that's no reason in itself why it's as slow as it is. From what I can see now the system has been a foolish cosmetic upgrade. Dublin Bus have never fully explained the situation behind the need for such change. If indeed they had to re-work the software to deal with the Mag Card Validator which according to them won't be around much longer, then it was a double-waste of taxpayer's money. I would love to know if the TGX was actually tested in-service before being deployed, on a route like the 11 or 46A. I wonder do the drivers go insane on the School buses at 3.30, when they've got to go into the sub menu 100 times!! They should just configure the 'soft menu' to have the same 10 buttons as the old WF2 system and be done with it. As such we're stuck with this abjectly crap and inefficient system for the sake of a few menus and a pretty customer display, the real thing now is that Dublin Bus need to be hassled to speed it up.

23-02-2006, 16:58	#29
PaulM Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 826	The price of prepaid tickets bothers me too (I should start another thread ) I also fall into that bracket of "ripped off by never having exact change and more expensive to buy prepaid tickets." That is a farce and a half if you ask me. DB should either start giving change again or start selling cheaper prepaid tickets. As it is I feel like I'm getting screwed either way.

23-02-2006, 18:58	#30
CSL Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 378	they won't agree to giving out change again, this I believe was one of the safety points [ anti-theft ]

23-02-2006, 19:23	#31
Red Alert Regular Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 33	it really isn't fair to ask the drivers to give out change tickets. guys used to rob them and demand the whole cash dispenser on pain of a syringe - nobody should have to work in that situation

23-02-2006, 19:37	#32
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	If they put ticket machines at the busiest stops and programmed them to be able to dispense tickets for future dates, they got get a lot of people to use prepaid tickets without having to change fares at all. The fact that the machines will give change should be enough of a hook on its own. Most people get the bus from their home to the city in the morning and make the reverse trip in the evening. People could buy their ticket for the trip home and get their ticket for the next morning at the same time. I do think there should be significant reductions for prepaid tickets, though. Unless you live a long way out weekly/monthly trips just aren't worth it. If we had a proper zone system and you could buy season tickets that covered just the central zones there would be a lot more take-up.

24-02-2006, 01:28	#34
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Quote "I would love to know if the TGX was actually tested in-service before being deployed, on a route like the 11 or 46A.". I understand the TGX was trialled on the 747/748 Airlink service which oddly enough still operates in the "OldenTimes" cash handling mode.....so the change ticket speed would never have been flagged.....Hmmmmmmm....

24-02-2006, 22:06	#36
Red Alert Regular Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 33	Yeah I think I heard of the smart card too. If I remember Martin Cullen may have been on the promo shoot trying it?