Proposals for extra train services in North Tipperary...

[seamus kilcock]

I'm a pro train person - I was brought up on the railways, my father was a station master.
But, the chances of the new services between Limerick, Roscrea, B'brophy, Dublin have no chance of survival. The economics do not add up.
Between the Bus Eireann services and upgraded Motorway roads the railway service stands no chance of success and by extension survival.
The cost of reinstating the WRC was one of the greatest waste of valuable resources for a long time. Let's not repeat it on the Limerick to B'brophy line.
The truth sometimes does hurt!

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by doherty jack

it is very difficult to run train direct to Roscrea/Nenagh line , it takes 15mins to go from the loop line to the bay platform! including going up the wrong road!

I meant splitting one of the 2x3 trains that arrive in Limerick in the evening with one half to form the 0515 and the other the normal service. I was not suggesting doing this in reverse.

[Alan French]

I wouldn’t be too negative about the new timetable. To start with the down side, clearly the biggest loss is the 17.45 Limerick-Nenagh. The earlier time of 17.05 is too early for most commuters.

They will argue that the train never attracted many commuters anyway, so there’s not much loss. I’m hearing two conflicting reports here: one is this train is an essential alternative to the congested streets of Limerick. The other is that the roads are so good and the train is so slow that no one uses it. Can someone enlighten me?

In any case, I don’t think they should give up so easily on attracting commuters. The new timetable needs one additional train (a class 22, by the sound of it) which finishes its roster at 15.50. This should be available to operate the 17.45 Limerick-Nenagh (or at least to Birdhill). See also Jack Doherty’s suggestion in #127.

The new timetable follows the precedent of the other lines radiating from Dublin, which all have a train arriving in Dublin before 09.00, and another one arriving a little later. There is also a choice of evening trains from Dublin. (Notice that this is the pattern for the Dublin-Rosslare line, which is sparsely served at other times.) The Nenagh line stood out as a glaring omission, so it’s good to see the gap being filled. I reckon that the aim is to offer choice of times: people were driving from Roscrea or Nenagh to a station on the main line because that gave them flexibility, which the Nenagh line doesn’t. The through train to Dublin is basically a good idea, if the path works; in recent years IR have tended to forget that a change of trains can be a deterrent, and it’s worth running through trains where possible.

The 13.40 Dublin-Limerick won’t benefit the Nenagh line directly, but do you notice that it’s restoring a useful service that was withdrawn until 2009 (previously at 13.25)?

About the absence of access to the far platform at Roscrea: Perhaps, once the service starts, the sight of a train stopping but unable to handle passengers will put the pressure on to do something – either to build a bridge or a back entrance, or to change the rules. Pressure may overcome the “can’t be done” attitude. I reckon that the simplest solution is a gate and ramp from the far side. What about the idea of a pedestrian crossing with barriers and lights? These are found in Holland, and I wonder if Irish rules specifically forbid them.

I know that this sudden political interference is unsettling, but it’s probably better than the old attitude of “I’ve no intention of intervening in IR’s decision-making”. The problem is not so much that one politician is pushing a local project, but that others, in other places, are not pushing theirs. If pressure were to come from several places at once, the whole scene would change. IR would no longer be able to dig their heels in when the need for an improved timetable is glaringly obvious. It’s like what is beginning to happen with the threat to rural national schools; if one place is looking to keep its school, that’s seeking a favour; if several places nationwide are looking to keep their schools, it needs a change in the decision-making process.

[Lyle Langley]

It's a pity for rail enthusiasts that the new services such as this and the WRC would - even to us - not make sense. I await further negative stories in the paper in five months' time or so.

[Traincustomer]

@ Jack. Thanks for the update.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Alan French

I know that this sudden political interference is unsettling, but it’s probably better than the old attitude of “I’ve no intention of intervening in IR’s decision-making”. The problem is not so much that one politician is pushing a local project, but that others, in other places, are not pushing theirs. If pressure were to come from several places at once, the whole scene would change. IR would no longer be able to dig their heels in when the need for an improved timetable is glaringly obvious. It’s like what is beginning to happen with the threat to rural national schools; if one place is looking to keep its school, that’s seeking a favour; if several places nationwide are looking to keep their schools, it needs a change in the decision-making process.

To be honest, there is little difference in this type of interference and "we'll demand it, but not use it" and the 'buy the election' mentalities that spend €100m on the WRC or any number of other wacky projects.

Ministers and government should set high level policy structures, not demand specific services. The mid-level should be down to the NTA and the day to day running down to the operators.

Without wanting to get into discussing schools, let us discuss train stations instead. If I change your text.

It’s like what is beginning to happen with the threat to train stations ; if one place is looking to keep its train station, that’s seeking a favour; if several places nationwide are looking to keep their train stations, it needs a change in the decision-making process.

I wouldn't absolutely agree. The provision of stations should be down to what socio-economic benefit they deliver and some thresholds should exist. Some stations are very poorly used, while other places could do with a station (or indeed a second station). Potentially some standard needs to be set such that the most people are served with what resources are available and while nobody should be screwed over, there are some services (not restricting that to trains) that are living on borrowed time. The people of East Wall / North Strand / Ballybough suffer all of the inconvenience of the railway, but have little of the convenience. Oranmore, Blackpool, Ballyfermot or Phibsborough-Glasnevin should have had stations long before Crusheen or Ardrahan. Should Crusheen or Woodlawn keep their unused stations, but Nenagh or Clonmel (assuming meaningful services can be put in place within the current cost constraints) lose theirs?

[Destructix]

Clonmel has potential though. Just the services are poor and no Sunday service. Even with this patronage is still much better than Nenagh.

[brompton7]

Originally Posted by doherty jack

as part of the Nenagh rail partnership , we are putting up posters the disused shopfronts in towns & villages along the line to promote it , also a poster has been cabled tied to the gates at Roscrea & Nenagh stations reading (roscrea) Roscrea -dublin , adult day return ,E24.50......(Nenagh) Nenagh - Dublin ,adult dat return ,E26.00

Some individuals I have spoken to recently that drive my route from Killaloe/Ballina / East Clare were not aware that a functional railway station even exists at Birdhill, never mind that a commuter service runs on it.

Considering Killaloe/Ballina is a tourist hub / confluence can the NRP drop some posters around there? Some business are considering pooling resources to provide a Killaloe/Ballina shuttle service to bring visitors to the heritage towns/ lake villages and marinas from rail services at Birdhill. Idea was put on ice over publicity about line closure so investment in bus was deferred. Just another thought....

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

If that is the case what is the 1340 to Limerick all about. Given that this exercise is supposed to be about improving services via Nenagh one would have to question why the set for the 1340 doesn't work a service from Heuston ahead of the 1300 and then shunt to the branch to form a connection off the 1300.

[dowlingm]

Inniskeen, if it worked via the branch and its time consuming shunting then presumably there's a fear it wouldn't be available to form the 1705, given current running times and the need to cross the 1605?

[Charlie Hungerford]

Originally Posted by Traincustomer

To draw a parallel - across in Wales the new local trains to Fishguard are for a three year trial and this fact and the attendant need to support them seems very well known and appreciated by the local community there.

The 'Use it or lose it' principle is also being employed by NIR on the Whitehead-Larne Harbour section of its Larne line. Basically, the locals have been given a year or so to demonstrate that there's a demand for the current service, which is poorly-utilised after Whitehead, otherwise the frequency on that section of the line will be cut to one train every two hours to allow for enhanced services on the remainder of the line.

[neoncircles]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

I would think the 1340 would operate as 2x3 car 22k...3 car to operate 0515 and 3 car to operate 0900

[Inniskeen]

Neocircles, you have probably explained why the 1340 doen't operate via the Nenagh - in the absence of SDO a six car set can not stop at branch stations.

Incidentally how does the 0900 from Limerick get back to Limerick at the moment ?

[brompton7]

In simple terms:

Departures at 45 mins past the hour = many potential customers will not wait for a departure (they are potentially at home 15 mins before it leaves) therefore service doesn't thrive.

Departures 05 min past the hour = untenable for most current users therefore service loses any current business.

Departure 20 mins past the hour = most current users can still use service and extra Nenagh throughput maintained.

Can somebody wiser than I explain to me WHY there is no win/win situation here. Humans have transplanted hearts and put men on the moon; why can't we run a train up a track at a convenient time? (And cross them over someplace, conveniently).

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by doherty jack

18.20 ballybrophy /limerick goes into mainline at roscrea

17.05 Limerick/Ballybrophy goes into Loop line at Roscrea

BUT 18.20pm ONLY RUNS MONDAY-FRIDAY which begs the question is the on Saturday .what will be done?

17.05pm MONDAY -SATURDAY so on saturday will the train stop at Roscrea?

its not marked on the timetable as a saturday only service where it stops at Roscrea as well.......

It is now.
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/Dublin...aNenagh121.pdf
But not if you use the link in the announcement
http://www.irishrail.ie/media/Dublin...5th_March2.pdf

Also - the other printable timetables have been updated with PDFs effective 05.03.2012

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

Inniskeen, if it worked via the branch and its time consuming shunting then presumably there's a fear it wouldn't be available to form the 1705, given current running times and the need to cross the 1605?

Later information suggests that the 1340 from Heuston will be a 3-car ICR set and will not form the 1705 Limerick to Ballybrophy. No apparent tie-up with 0900 from Limerick either.

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Later information suggests that the 1340 from Heuston will be a 3-car ICR set and will not form the 1705 Limerick to Ballybrophy. No apparent tie-up with 0900 from Limerick either.

According to the journey planner, the 0900 to Dublin is already running even though the timetable has this only from 25th June. It is probably provided by splitting one of the 3 evening trains.

That implies that he 1340 is required to provide a unit for the new service. Wonder what evening train will loose 3 carriages? 1805 to Portlaosie??

[Jamie2k9]

The 09.00 from Limerick was due to be summer only but it was extended to year round last summer. 2 out of the 3 early morning services are full 6 car (1 class) sets and the 05.30 is 2 by 3 car but I think its not split as it serves a lot of major stations along the way and a 3 car would not be enough.

[Carrage A]

Cork, Limerick, Tralee, and a few more have new PDF timetables valid from 5 March.

[doherty jack]

@dowlingm .thanks for the update! its good they have it marked in now