Proposals for extra train services in North Tipperary...

[Traincustomer]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

If there had been a consultation you can bet there would have been a very different outcome.
They have 6 months to use it or lose it and odds are it will be a lose it.

Does the "use it or lose it" pertain solely to the 05.15 or to all services on the line?

Personally I feel the "use it or lose it" concept should be made quite explicit by IE and the local group/s. It can't do any harm and indeed is fair in many respects on all sides. In that I mean putting the fact in clear language, words like "trial", "your support" etc... on posters at every station.

To draw a parallel - across in Wales the new local trains to Fishguard are for a three year trial and this fact and the attendant need to support them seems very well known and appreciated by the local community there.

A clear step by step process which is transparent is needed in these sort of things.

To ensure fairness from all sides though the Limerick commuter situation should be addressed and finer details as per dowlingm's post addressed.

[Destructix]

Kelly Defends Extra Rail Services


Published on Monday 27 February 2012 14:30

THE Junior Minister for Public Transport, Alan Kelly, has defended the implementation of a new early morning service and other changes on the Limerick to Ballybrophy line, which serves Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan and Roscrea. And he rejected claims that the cost of the extra services would amount to E20,000 per day.

He insisted that Iarnrod Eireann was only implementing what its own Goodbody commissioned report had found and that was that the only way to save the line was though enhancing services on it.

“On top of that, the new early morning service will stop at stations on the way into Dublin, giving commuters extra options,” he said. “This is something Iarnrod Eireann wanted.”

Full report in this week’s Tipperary Star

€20,000 per day what the flip. That is roughly €3 million this line could cost the state within six months if the number of users isn't high.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Destructix

€20,000 per day what the flip. That is roughly €3 million this line could cost the state within six months if the number of users isn't high.

How is this €20,000 made up ?

If this is the marginal cost of a return service from Limerick to Dublin (0515 out via Nenagh, 1340 back via Limerick Junction) and an extension of a second train from Nenagh to Ballybrophy and back to Nenagh then the railway company has a massive problem with its operational costs.

In addition to the costs directly associated with the extra trains the branch is open for approximnately an extra one and a half hours, five days per week - at most equivalent to the cost of two additional staff per day.

The numbers simply don't add up and have clearly been fed to a ignorant and gullible media.

[finnyus]

Had planned to sample the 0515 Limerick - Heuston on 05. March, however using irishrail.ie that service does not appear, unless I am traveling from any other station except Limerick. So, currently on irishrail.ie, you cannot book 0515 Limerick - Heuston from the following stations:
- Limerick (Colbert)
- Castleconnell
- Birdhill
- Cloughjordan
- Roscrea

The stations on the Nenagh line (except Limerick & Ballybrophy) have no ticket vending machines, so I can understand why it is not currently possible to book tickets online for those stations. Nenagh, I assume will get the purchased online tickets from Thurles, similar to what happened when the GAA spl operated over the line back in September.

[Colm Moore]

Seems to be OK now.

[finnyus]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Seems to be OK now.

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

[comcor]

The 5K must surely be yet another example of IN&M bending statistics to suit their agenda.

I have to assume that it's what you get when you divide the total cost of operating the line by the number of services, rather than the increased cost of operating the service.

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

I just can't see how it can add up to 5K.

The worst part is the suspicion that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

[comcor]

Originally Posted by finnyus

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

That's a quirk of the booking system.

The 5:30 arrives before the 5:15, so the 5:15 doesn't show up.

You get some weird results sometimes, like suggesting you go from Waterford to Dublin via Limerick Junction because the 11:40 train via Limerick Junction leaves after the 11:00 and arrives about quarter of an hour before the 13:00.


Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.

[finnyus]

Originally Posted by comcor

That's a quirk of the booking system.

...

12 years in the software development sector makes me see this as a defect (bug)...

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by finnyus

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

Ah, I had looked at a Limerick-Ballybrophy trip, where there isn't much of a time difference.

Originally Posted by comcor

That's a quirk of the booking system.

...

Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.

Originally Posted by finnyus

12 years in the software development sector makes me see this as a defect (bug)...

Its a feature, not a bug. You request a train that will get you to Heuston and the 0530 will get you there first, the 0515 is essentially useless to you.

Originally Posted by comcor

Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.

In the case of Waterford-Dublin, if someone would have better use of their time in Dublin, then that routing is valid. Some Cork-Galway trips are via Portarlington, some via Limerick.

[Jamie2k9]

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by comcor

The 5K must surely be yet another example of IN&M bending statistics to suit their agenda.

I have to assume that it's what you get when you divide the total cost of operating the line by the number of services, rather than the increased cost of operating the service.

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

I just can't see how it can add up to 5K.

The worst part is the suspicion that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

i understand the figure is actually around €2,000 per day, I guess an extra 0 got lost in the matrix somewhere.

As someone who lives between Templemore and Roscrea and who works in Roscrea, it will be interesting to see that the actual patronage, as opposed to the usual vocal support, wil be for this. I was involved in a survey for the Templemore Train Users Group several years ago and we know that about half a dozen to a dozen people were using the early morning services from Temeplmore who lived in what would be the catchment for this early service. Undoubtedly there would be others who use Thurles.

They should be expected to get this train (although its arrival time is only relevent to those who work in that part of the city centre nearest Heuston) but will probably get the early Cork/Limerick trains out of Templemore as they still get in earlier.

The real acid test is the numbers of new passengers who will use it. Of course, what should be done is an early train from Ballybrophy to Limerick which would take an awful lot more people.

I also wonder where they are getting this train from, and is it really only a long long pullback of a planned commuter service planned from Portlaosie inwards? The amount of commuter stops on the way in suggests it is.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by comcor

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

......

that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

Wear and tear of an ICR will be higher on the track, the newer part will be ok, the older part will probably be replaced with track cut from the Cork Mainline development which is ongoing.

IE have, understandably, a bullwark against the proposals of the McCarthy reports, and we have seen that in the case of Rosslare-Waterford and next in line for a fallback position was Ballybrophy branch with the idea of rail busses being floated on the Clonmel branch too. This initiative by Alan Kelly (and make no bones about it this is his idea not IE's) has rather scuppered that for the time being. What you may think of this initiative on his part is down to you. I couldnt possibly comment.

[comcor]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

The real acid test is the numbers of new passengers who will use it. Of course, what should be done is an early train from Ballybrophy to Limerick which would take an awful lot more people.

I'll speak as someone who has no connection to the line, but does have family in the catchment of Rosslare-Waterford and knows a little about how that line was perceived locally before its closure.

One of the problems is going to be that it takes a while to build a commuter base and I'm not sure that this line has time. In addition, people will need to know that the service isn't just going to be withdrawn if they are to start relying on it.

Pulling the commuter service out of Limerick in the evening is going to do nothing to promote the image of rail commuting in the area.

Someone made reference to Welsh services that were given a 3 year time frame to prove their worth. While I know we're strapped for cash at the moment, this is the kind of guarantee that is needed if public trust in the service is to be built up.

[dowlingm]

Ballybrophy will be a quite decent place to commute from now that there are three departures in the system which will land you in Heuston between 8.10 and 8.40.

Surely the set will have to be based in Limerick rather than deadheaded from Portlaoise to arrive before 0515? That sounds too bizarre even for Irish Rail to consider.

If the 1915 dep ex Ballybrophy was held 5 or so minutes, a person could commute from Limerick to Roscrea in 1hr 40ish (dep Limerick 1800 Limerick Junction 1827 Ballybrophy 1920) with 2 changes which would compare time-wise quite well to the 1hr32 the 1605 branch service takes.

While I doubt that many people not rail enthusiasts can be bothered taking three trains to get to Roscrea I would have thought a trickle of trade from the 1730 Cork departure (arr 1919) would be worth holding for considering that the bloody train will sit in Roscrea for 12 minutes anyway.

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

[doherty jack]

Originally Posted by Kilocharlie

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

it is very difficult to run train direct to Roscrea/Nenagh line , it takes 15mins to go from the loop line to the bay platform! including going up the wrong road!

[doherty jack]

Originally Posted by comcor

I'll speak as someone who has no connection to the line, but does have family in the catchment of Rosslare-Waterford and knows a little about how that line was perceived locally before its closure.

One of the problems is going to be that it takes a while to build a commuter base and I'm not sure that this line has time. In addition, people will need to know that the service isn't just going to be withdrawn if they are to start relying on it.

Pulling the commuter service out of Limerick in the evening is going to do nothing to promote the image of rail commuting in the area.

Someone made reference to Welsh services that were given a 3 year time frame to prove their worth. While I know we're strapped for cash at the moment, this is the kind of guarantee that is needed if public trust in the service is to be built up.

yes , but people wont join overnight and not enough will use it in the 1st 6months ! which is unfortunate!

[doherty jack]

Originally Posted by finnyus

Had planned to sample the 0515 Limerick - Heuston on 05. March, however using irishrail.ie that service does not appear, unless I am traveling from any other station except Limerick. So, currently on irishrail.ie, you cannot book 0515 Limerick - Heuston from the following stations:
- Limerick (Colbert)
- Castleconnell
- Birdhill
- Cloughjordan
- Roscrea

The stations on the Nenagh line (except Limerick & Ballybrophy) have no ticket vending machines, so I can understand why it is not currently possible to book tickets online for those stations. Nenagh, I assume will get the purchased online tickets from Thurles, similar to what happened when the GAA spl operated over the line back in September.

the stations had computers up to a few years ago but staff wernt trained to use them so sent back to thurles!

Originally Posted by Traincustomer

Does the "use it or lose it" pertain solely to the 05.15 or to all services on the line?

Personally I feel the "use it or lose it" concept should be made quite explicit by IE and the local group/s. It can't do any harm and indeed is fair in many respects on all sides. In that I mean putting the fact in clear language, words like "trial", "your support" etc... on posters at every station.

To draw a parallel - across in Wales the new local trains to Fishguard are for a three year trial and this fact and the attendant need to support them seems very well known and appreciated by the local community there.

A clear step by step process which is transparent is needed in these sort of things.

To ensure fairness from all sides though the Limerick commuter situation should be addressed and finer details as per dowlingm's post addressed.

as part of the Nenagh rail partnership , we are putting up posters the disused shopfronts in towns & villages along the line to promote it , also a poster has been cabled tied to the gates at Roscrea & Nenagh stations reading (roscrea) Roscrea -dublin , adult day return ,E24.50......(Nenagh) Nenagh - Dublin ,adult dat return ,E26.00

[Jamie2k9]

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

good suggestion but cost increase with a second driver required.

yes , but people wont join overnight and not enough will use it in the 1st 6months ! which is unfortunate!

Don't agree with that, if people in the region wanted a direct train to Dublin so much then they will use it once it starts operating. Why ask for one and not use it once it starts?