contested fine to no avail.....

[Thomas Ralph]

I have limited if any sympathy for people who could (including could but for circumstances entirely within their control) buy the ticket they wanted and didn't and got fined.

I have occasionally travelled legally without a ticket and not had the opportunity to purchase one because nobody was on the train or at the destination to collect the fare. My fiancée has boarded at Sandymount early on Sunday mornings when the station was closed and the TVMs (inexplicably) shuttered, and had no problems paying her fare at Connolly.

The problem I can see happening is if someone arrives at a station where there is only a TVM and not an attended office and wants to get a ticket which that machine doesn't supply (e.g. a Faircard return from Sandymount to Galway). Since there is some kind of ticket that the person could buy (e.g. a single to Connolly), it looks like they are disadvantaged and there is no legal right to buy a ticket en route or at the destination in that case.

[PaulM]

Ah Mark, as usual you are only seeing things in black and white.

IE are full of inconsistencies.
People are often told to pay at the other end.
There is a desk saying "Purchase your ticket here (or whatever it says).
People have misunderstood this.
People are being caught out by this.
If people knew what it meant, they would purchase their tickets first.
I feel IE are being misleading with this and I am a passenger.

Everyone here knows you need a ticket to board. With the fly trap people have assumed (and rightly so by IE standards) that the purpose of this desk is to pay for a ticket that you didn't pay for before hand. This is where they are getting caught. If IE had consistency in their methods, a large amount of people wouldn't do things like this.

Remember, not all of us have the time to learn each rule and regulation of the railway. IE should make this clear to the public. That is something they have never done. As a committee member of a passenger rights group, I would expect you to be more supportive of the passengers instead of black and white, left or right, one or zero.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

If you do get stopped at the booth and are legally clean as the station was closed and the clerk does his/her best shiftless IE on you insist on the station manger being called, I've never had a problem

That may well be but he did have a problem. They didn't believe him and no amount of arguing got him anywhere. In the end he gave them a false address and stopped using the train. If Irish Rail can't get their own house in order and actually have staff selling tickets when they're meant to, it's hypocritical to be taking it out on (ex-)customers.

And like Paul said, he did have every intention of paying so when we saw a stand saying 'buy your ticket here', he went to it, not imaging he was walking into a trap.

[MOH]

Since they moved the ticket machines in Blackrock to outside the station, I've seen people inside when the desk is unmanned looking around trying to work out where they're supposed to buy a ticket. Think they've put a sign up somewhere now explaining they're outside.
Bit stupid though if you arrive to buy your ticket, find the desk is closed, you then have to backtrack to find the TVM.

[philip]

Originally Posted by PaulM

IE are full of inconsistencies.

There's your problem right there. It's not anyone's fault but IE's IMO. Either go with permanently manned stations (excessive!) TVMs at all stations open at all hours with full exit validation or don't start trying to catch people in the maze of IE bylaws that quite frankly, nobody gives a damn about.

[turnapin]

Interesting one at Edgeworthstown last week. Man arrived at the station late. Ticket office open but unstaffed(no machine), as the station master doubles as a flag man and other things and was off up the platform. Doors start beeping, so man jumps on. Luckily there was a ticket inspector on the train after Mullingar and he was allowed buy a ticket. I wonder would what reception he would have got at Connolly if he arrived without a ticket.

[Mark Gleeson]

That was totally legal, booking office unstaffed

Rule has a special condition for this where the member of staff who issues tickets needs to assist in the trains departure (s)he can authorise you to board with no ticket as to not delay the trains departure. Again you don't need to know this. In fact applying nothing more than common sense will see you safely through the system

If you can buy a ticket before you board you must, if you can't you must obtain a ticket at the earliest opertunity

There is nothing complex or confusing about the state of play, it is the same across most of world and is a perfectly logical state of affairs.

While there is no doubt that Irish Rail have been far from perfect, there have been serious increases in the number of TVM's starting from zero to almost every suburban station having at least one, a significant number are available outside the opening hours of the station

The booth in Connolly is postered with large signs clearly indicating fines will be issued. The law allows the member of staff to either issue the normal ticket or a fine depending on the situation. I have been through the booth in Connolly at least 3 times ticketless, even arriving in from broombridge, never a problem. This is the scenario which concerns us

[philip]

The likes of Clonsilla is a joke. The stations shuts up shop at whatever, 1800 and the TVMs are of course, locked inside. The stupid stupid thing is that there is a signal cabin directly overlooking the station (indeed, in years gone by the signalman was also the station master!) so they could easily leave this one open so as to allow access to the TVMs as I really don't think all my €2 fares over the years paid at the barrier in Tara have gone into IE's bank account, if you know what I mean.

Anyway-why can't they get rid of those clowns at Tara/Connolly and have TVMs set up in 'reverse' mode so you select the station you came from and buy the ticket before exiting the station. At leats that way we'd know the dosh was actually not buying pints at the end of shift (though I'm sure that doesn't ever happen for legal reasons).

[turnapin]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

That was totally legal, booking office unstaffed

Rule has a special condition for this where the member of staff who issues tickets needs to assist in the trains departure (s)he can authorise you to board with no ticket as to not delay the trains departure. Again you don't need to know this. In fact applying nothing more than common sense will see you safely through the system

If you can buy a ticket before you board you must, if you can't you must obtain a ticket at the earliest opertunity

Mark. I don't think this is quite that clear. The gentleman in question didn't have permission from a member of staff to board.

He walked onto the platform, walked into the ticket office, could see no one at the counter and so walked back onto the platform. The doors then started beeping.

At this stage he didn't know
a: if there was someone in the ticket office, but not at the window for the five seconds he was at it.
b: if he could legally board the train
c: if he could pay on the train

By the time we reached Mullingar, I had already decided that if we reached Connolly without a ticket checker, I would hold back at the ticket desk to make sure he didn't get fined. The gentleman looked very anxious when he boarded the train and very relieved when the ticket checker sold him a ticket.

I find it very worrying the Irish Rail stick no ticket no travel posters the length and breadth of the network, only for people to find out that they don't really mean it at certain stations under certain circumstances and at certain times of the day.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by philip

The likes of Clonsilla is a joke. The stations shuts up shop at whatever, 1800 and the TVMs are of course, locked inside. The stupid stupid thing is that there is a signal cabin directly overlooking the station (indeed, in years gone by the signalman was also the station master!) so they could easily leave this one open so as to allow access to the TVMs as I really don't think all my €2 fares over the years paid at the barrier in Tara have gone into IE's bank account, if you know what I mean.

Anyway-why can't they get rid of those clowns at Tara/Connolly and have TVMs set up in 'reverse' mode so you select the station you came from and buy the ticket before exiting the station. At leats that way we'd know the dosh was actually not buying pints at the end of shift (though I'm sure that doesn't ever happen for legal reasons).

agreed. When this station becomes a major interchange point in the future they need to sort out the ticket office/information point

[al2637]

The ticket machine in the booking office as Castleknock was out of order a couple of mornings last week. The guy behind the counter instructed people to use the single TVM. Obviously 1 TVM doesn't have the capacity to deal with the passenger numbers at Castleknock in the morning.

Train turns up, everyone leaves the queue and gets on train. Were they right to do this? What other option did they have?


What happens if you turn up at the other end to the new automated barriers with no ticket, and an unmaned ticket office?

[Mark Gleeson]

If the booking office was open, you should buy a ticket unless instructed otherwise, you can take up the queue with IE as a failure to meet the charter (and MOU) requirements

Curiously there is no formal obligation on you to use a TVM, as I have pointed out several times C(IE) have had ticket vending machines since the early 1980's (there only left but out of use) thus the bye laws where written after there introduction so the lack of a mention of a ticket vending machine in the rules is curious

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Curiously there is no formal obligation on you to use a TVM, as I have pointed out several times C(IE) have had ticket vending machines since the early 1980's (there only left but out of use) thus the bye laws where written after there introduction so the lack of a mention of a ticket vending machine in the rules is curious

It makes perfect sense to me. Only the ticket office has the ability to issue all (normal) ticket types, whereas the current batch of ticket machines cannot issue certain tickets. Forcing people to use a machine that might not be able to issue the ticket they require would be a bit cheeky.

[PaulM]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

If you can buy a ticket before you board you must, if you can't you must obtain a ticket at the earliest opertunity

Do a quick survey of the commuting public. Ask them do they know this rule.

Then ask them have they ever bought a ticket at their destination. Then ask them if they believe this is acceptable.

[ThomasJ]

Cullen was asked about the possability of introducing a congestion charge in the capital but responded that the public transport resources were not in place.

The only reason I am saying is because in enforcing these rules there needed to be resouces put in place to facilitate. What happened at Castleknock was not right. This station has normal resources of a ticket office and 2 tvms. I have used it at times and the queues for it can be enormous. The fact that it was down to 1 TVM and people were still required to queue to get tickets goes to show how much a joke this rule is.

In putting the exit validation in place it was obvious that while DART stations were upgraded, stations on the Maynooth line are a joke. It is not just Castleknock, look at Coolmine, there were queues for the temp. station out the gate and around by the new bridge the other morning, Clonsilla and Ashtown can be as bad. 1 or 2 tvms (not always working), stations not always open and only 3 turnstiles to validate tickets is not enough! If they are expecting major passenger numbers for these stations they need to facilitate them!

[al2637]

There's actually only one TVM at Castleknock (ridiculous, but thats another point). When I said the ticket machine was broke, I meant the one in the ticket offfice. The guy behind the counter was unable to issue tickets.

From what Mark has said, people who left the TVM queue and got on the train were entitled to do so. (i think?)

[Mark Gleeson]

We are not aware of anyone who has tried to the TVM not in the rules line.

The booking office was unable to sell a ticket due a technical problem, you would be really unlucky to get done in court on that

[turnapin]

Just to clarify. Can anyone confirm that you will get done for the following

Turn up at station. Train on platform. Que at ticket machine(s) and at counter. Rather than miss the train, jump on train and try to pay at the far end.

[PaulM]

Originally Posted by turnapin

Just to clarify. Can anyone confirm that you will get done for the following

Turn up at station. Train on platform. Que at ticket machine(s) and at counter. Rather than miss the train, jump on train and try to pay at the far end.

Yes you will. This is why the desk at Connolly is misleading. Not everyone knows the rules and people think this is an acceptable alternative.

[ofjames]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

Is there always a method of crossing the tracks to the ticket office when the level crossing is closed, lift/ramped access at Coolmine?

On the Blanchardstown side of the tracks at coolmine there is a Turnstile exit and an entrance gate. If the level crossing is closed, the only way to get to the Ticket office is to go through the entrance gate and cross the footbridge to the castleknock side. However, that entrance gate is often locked shut outside of the rush hours. Thus, to answer your question, NO, there is not ALWAYS a means of crossing the tracks once the gates are down, only SOMETIMES