contested fine to no avail.....

[CSL]

Here is the link to SI 109/1984 FYI

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI109Y1984.html

[Colm Donoghue]

I presume the below means tickets are non-transferrable. how would you get a ticket in the first place though?
And "Obtain" is a verb used by myself and others to describe getting something without buying it in a shop yet without disclosing how one would get it.
-------------------------


8. (1) Subject to paragraph (3) of this Bye-Law, no person shall, with intent that any person shall use the same for the purpose of travelling or conveyance upon the railway—


( a ) sell or buy or attempt to sell or buy any ticket;


---------------
Paragraph 3 is here
-------------------
3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall—


(1) enter any lift or pass any ticket barrier unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling the holder to enter such lift or pass such barrier; and such ticket or other authority shall be produced on demand to any authorised person; or


(2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.


The Board shall be entitled to recover the full fare for the distance actually travelled by the offender without a ticket or other authority.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its the non transfer clause, authorised person is quite different

[MOH]

But it says "he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket ".
So if you buy a ticket from someone else, would it not be a straightforward defence that they bought the ticket on your behalf?


Thought the "unmanned manned station" comment raised a valid point, what's the definition of manned? Which of these would count as an "unstaffed booking office"?

- If the station is open, but the bloke's gone off for a cup of tea/call of nature/nap/gaming session, and there's a sign up;
- If he's gone off for a while but hasn't put the sign up;
- If he's stepped out of view for 30 seconds while you happen to arrive;
- If he's bent down below the counter level tying his lace;
- If he is actually there but is on the phone and refusing to serve anyone.

I've definitely been in stations which were "open" but where there was no-one behind the counter, but there was no sign up, but since I'm on an annual ticketI'd never be hanging around waiting for the guy.

[Terrontress]

Am I right in thinking that anyone who uses the lift from the northbound platform in Portmarnock to get over to the southbound platform can be pursued for fare evasion, based on the statue book?

[Mark Gleeson]

Since Portmarnock is a open station as in no barriers you haven't broken the rule concerning entry to the platform without valid ticket

[andyl222]

Just a quick update. I received an email from Joan Burton in reference to my situation. She has gotten in contact with Cal Carmichael on my behalf and his response was as non-committal and vague as Mr. Byrne's. The basic gist is this, everyone must understand Iarnoid Eireann's need for Revenue protection yadda yadda yadda. His closing statement was that in certain cases an individual must pursue their cause as far as the courts where their case and circumstances can be judged on their merits. If this is the case it would seem Mr.Byrne's position is redundant, and therefore so is he.
So essentially it would seem neither Mr.Byrne or Mr.Carmichael have any intention of reducing or quashing any fines that are issued, they leave it to go to court where it can be judged. Surely they must have procedures in place whereby they can affect the change or dismissal of a penalty issued by one of their staff, but I guess customer satisfaction is very low on their list of priorities. In this situation where the public is strangled by a state run organisation with omnipotence in their field ( rail travel) and a vampiric lust for profits, the customer will always be a very lowly priority, afterall it is a captive market.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Terrontress

A good few letters into the Metro this morning about the charging of fines.

Here:

Originally Posted by Metro

MAIL METRO

Monday, April 16, 2007

Fines punish honest people

Unfair Punters must be properly informed about the fare rules

-----------------------------------

I read Chloe's letter (MailMetro, Thurs) and halfway through I knew what the outcome was, as I have been through the same scenario.

My circumstances were different in that I couldn't get a ticket due to the automated ticket machines at my station being out of service.

Not wanting to miss my train, I thought: 'There is a little desk at Connolly and I will pay there.' I queued up at Connolly at a desk advertising 'No Ticket - please queue here' and 'Get a ticket not a criminal record' as I wanted to pay for my journey - and was given a €50 fine for my efforts to avoid getting a criminal record!

If I was caught trying to go through the barrier on an out of date ticket or without any ticket whatsoever then I would deserve a fine. However, if I go out of my way to pay and I still get a €50 fine, where is the common sense in that?

L Jenning by e-mail

-----------------------------------

To Chloe and everyone else who's been, fined by Irish Rail: there are no signs in Tara Connolly or Pearse stations which mention the fines. Write and tell Irish Rail that their communication about the new fines has been non¬-existent and ask them to reconsider.

KM, Dublin 15

-----------------------------------

Recently, I got to, Tara Street station and, just like Chloe, told a member of staff I wanted to pay my fare, just like I have done a few times previously.

In the past, staff have been happy to issue me with a written ticket in return for my fare. However, this time I was blown away with the arrogance and unfairness with which I was confronted.

Like Chloe, I too felt like I had done something wrong and was close to tears. All I was doing was being honest. I am outraged that they think they can get away with this. A €50 fine is ridiculous for doing nothing wrong but being honest. I can understand if the staff member had issued me with a warning, as I would then know a fine can be issued for not purchasing a ticket at your departure station.

However, the fare rules have not been adequately publicised

Sarah Kelly, Dublin 15

[MOH]

Originally Posted by andyl222

Just a quick update. I received an email from Joan Burton in reference to my situation. She has gotten in contact with Cal Carmichael on my behalf and his response was as non-committal and vague as Mr. Byrne's. The basic gist is this, everyone must understand Iarnoid Eireann's need for Revenue protection yadda yadda yadda. His closing statement was that in certain cases an individual must pursue their cause as far as the courts where their case and circumstances can be judged on their merits. If this is the case it would seem Mr.Byrne's position is redundant, and therefore so is he.
So essentially it would seem neither Mr.Byrne or Mr.Carmichael have any intention of reducing or quashing any fines that are issued, they leave it to go to court where it can be judged. Surely they must have procedures in place whereby they can affect the change or dismissal of a penalty issued by one of their staff, but I guess customer satisfaction is very low on their list of priorities. In this situation where the public is strangled by a state run organisation with omnipotence in their field ( rail travel) and a vampiric lust for profits, the customer will always be a very lowly priority, afterall it is a captive market.

That's great, cause we all know the courts have nothing to do these days other than sit around and deal with fare evasion cases. Typical IE to avoid doing anything to resolve the issue, which might involve a bit of work, when they can leave it up to the overloaded courts

[ooleary]

More letters in yesterdays and todays metro - 2 people getting stuck with the 50 euro fine today. One of the letter writers was let off the fine after the Pearse staff phoned their local station where it was confirmed they had been let through without a ticket; the other letter writer boarded a train when it arrived after they had been unsuccessfully queuing for a ticket for 15 minutes in coolmine.

[Mark Gleeson]

Pattern here is people without tickets are getting done, those who have a legitimate case i.e. unstaffed or where permitted to board (as is allowed in law) by a member of staff have not been fined

As of today we are aware of ZERO people who got fined despite being legally permitted to travel without a ticket and trust me I have tried to get fined while still legal

Coolmine has a TVM a staffed office and the office in the container, I'd love to know why so many people are still buying singles and returns, its always confused me why there was a massive queue at 5:45pm in Pearse for tickets. There are 3 day tickets, 7 day and monthly and so on, you can buy your ticket the day before.

[zag]

Mark,

People buy singles because they make single journeys. If you take the train 2 or 3 seperate days in a week you can't benefit from the 3 days tickets or the 7 day ones. Bring back the 10 journey ticket. Bring in an oyster-equivalent. Using these would reduce queueing time significantly. Before I got my annual ticket (which still only makes sense with the tax relief) I used to buy my return every morning because I only used the train *some* days a week. Buying a weekly ticket went against the grain (and cost more) if I knew I was unlikely to use it both directions every day.

I didn't know you could buy your ticket the day before travelling - does that work on the TVMs ? How many people know of this ability ?

The case in Metro was very close to someone who was allowed travel without a ticket getting a fine. They only didn't get the fine because Pearse rang their origin station. If Pearse didn't have time/couldn't be bothered/wasn't their job/etc . . . then the person would have got a fine despite apparently being allowed travel from their origin without a ticket.

z

[markpb]

I'd agree with that. Commuter tickets in Dublin are just for that: people who travel medium-distance, fixed routes every weekday without deviation. If you travel short distances or want to change mode, the ticket won't cover you. There's also the silly insistance (from DB and IR) that monthly tickets should run for calendar months.

I travel from Stephens Green to Sandyford every day and a weekly ticket saves me less than 3 euro. When I lived in LA, a monthly bus+rail ticket was 40 dollars (after a discount from my employers) and was available everywhere. Any bus, any train, any time in an area much larger than GDA. You can't even buy that (DB, Dart, Luas) ticket in Dublin and even if you could it would be extortionate.

[2Funki4Wheelz]

Why were 10 journey tickets binned? I remember when they were taken of Dublin Bus, they were so handy for infrequent travellers - like a primitive smart card.
Is it because they reckon people will get 10+ out of them wherever they don't get checked? I've saved on the odd 2easy DB ticket when the machine's broken.

[Terrontress]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Since Portmarnock is a open station as in no barriers you haven't broken the rule concerning entry to the platform without valid ticket

Yes but you have entered a lift, which seems to be against the byelaws as you are being carried....

[Colm Donoghue]

. Buying your Ticket

We will endeavour to sell you the most appropriate ticket to meet your expressed needs. If you do not already have a ticket, we advise that you arrive at the station in sufficient time to obtain one.

Excluding exceptional circumstances, our standard for ticket offices is that, during advertised hours of business, you should not have to wait for more than seven minutes to buy your ticket.

Outside our busy peak periods, we aim to serve you within three minutes.

http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/home/customer_charter.asp


Either IE pay lip service to their customer charter or else delete it and piss on their honest customers.

The person who was waiting > 15 mins also showed their ticket upside down to the inspector at pearse for the next week and wasn't checked. Mockery I tells ya

[PaulM]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but it is quite and interesting one.

The funny thing is, if the "fly trap" actually pointed out it was a desk for the standard fair, people wouldn't be queuing at it. I (like many others) always assumed it was a last chance thing.

To me (no legal training) it seems like entrapment. I know the rules (from here) but if I didn't and thought I could legally get a ticket at Connolly if I was running late, that's what I'd do.

Does Andy still post here, did he pay the fine?

The person who was waiting > 15 mins also showed their ticket upside down to the inspector at pearse for the next week and wasn't checked. Mockery I tells ya

A fun game is to show them whatever you like. I'm yet to be caught doing this.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its not a fly trap, nor is it entrappment, no ticket you get a fine unless that station you boarded was unstaffed

The booth has the full capabilty of a booking office, it has a ticket issuing machine, boxes of tickets etc. Its primary purpose is to ensure everyone passing the turnstiles has a ticket to get out, by virtue of that function it does of course collect a lot of fare evaders

The Broombridge line doesn't always work since staff are posted from time to time to Broombridge for that very reason

Fare revenue is up significantly more than the number of extra passengers since the booth arrived which tells you a story

To this day not one single report of a fine being issued to a passenger who boarded at an unstaffed station

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

To this day not one single report of a fine being issued to a passenger who boarded at an unstaffed station

It might be heresay but a neighbour of mine was complaining yesterday that he arrived at Howth Junction for an early train a while ago and found the ticket machine turned off and the ticket desk unmanned so he boarded the train. When he went to pay in Connolly they didn't believe him and issued a fine.

[Mark Gleeson]

No one has contacted us yet, plently of the yes I had no ticket and was in a hurry and the queue was too long.....

If you do get stopped at the booth and are legally clean as the station was closed and the clerk does his/her best shiftless IE on you insist on the station manger being called, I've never had a problem

IE have a legal right to stop you and demand you produce a ticket