Anti Social Scumbags

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

But again - they didn't contact the driver because they didn't know how to, due to not being aware of what to do.

People have no interest in knowing what to do in an emergency until they are in one themselves.

The electronic displays in the carriages on 22Ks advise passenger to contact the driver via the intercom at the end of the carriage in cases of anti-social behaviour.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Kilocharlie

The electronic displays in the carriages on 22Ks advise passenger to contact the driver via the intercom at the end of the carriage in cases of anti-social behaviour.

So why didn't someone do precisely that?

People just ignore these notices/displays/announcements.

[Jamie2k9]

The reason the driver wasn't told is because today society is self indulged and once it isn't affecting them people are happy to sit back and watch.

Now the driver would and could only do what the passengers did and alert the guards but blaming IE when nobody contacted the driver is not justified.

Possibly IE staff can pay more attention to the type of people boarding services in future.

Most people read the displays at some time or another and if you are a daily traveler there is no excuse for not alerting the driver.

[ocian]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

When stuck in the no win scenario like last night I highly recommend the fire extinguisher, nice and heavy to stop any advancing thug and best of all you can spray them down CO2 is very cold, or foam.

Surely then Irish Rail can pull you up also for misuse of the safety equipment if they wanted to? €2000 fine for doing so isn't it?

Now if the thug was on fire it would be a different story

[Mark Gleeson]

In the circumstances last night use of reasonable force to protect yourself was more than justified.

Folks seem rather scared of using any of the safety equipment, its there for emergencies...

[James Howard]

Fair enough, the lack of information (and people not familiarising themselves) on how to contact Irish Rail is a big factor. But from where I'm sitting on an ICR right now, there is no information visible. Any information on how to use emergency equipment tends to put a lot of emphasis on penalties for mis-use which would tend to put a lot of people off.

You can't put this down to apathy - several people did ring the guards so it wasn't a question of being passive. For some reason people either didn't know to pull the cord, they didn't feel it worthwhile or they were afraid to. Another possibility is that people thought that it would be better not to alert the driver in case he stopped the train and the guys then tried to do a runner.

The only thing I am blaming Irish Rail for is the failure to provide any form of security on trains and for allowing the situation to persist where low-level anti-social behaviour is allowed to continue unchallenged. This has a tendency to develop into incidents like we've seen this week and ultimately, somebody is going to get seriously injured or killed as a result of it. It is not reasonable to expect a ticket collector to go in and stop a fight but it is reasonable to expect some effort made to keep headbangers off trains and for Irish Rail staff to monitor what is going on and arrange to remove people from trains if they are annoying other passengers. None of this is new - I only ever took the old 1817 train to Longford once, because it was a very scary place to be the only person in a carriage after Maynooth aside from a nutter with a 2-litre of Linden Village.

In terms of defending yourself with a fire extinguisher, you are generally Ok if you used something that was to hand as a weapon so long as you could reasonably be expected to have the item to hand. So if you had a sword, that is not cool but if you used a walking stick, that is Ok.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

Fair enough, the lack of information (and people not familiarising themselves) on how to contact Irish Rail is a big factor. But from where I'm sitting on an ICR right now, there is no information visible. Any information on how to use emergency equipment tends to put a lot of emphasis on penalties for mis-use which would tend to put a lot of people off.

You can't put this down to apathy - several people did ring the guards so it wasn't a question of being passive. For some reason people either didn't know to pull the cord, they didn't feel it worthwhile or they were afraid to. Another possibility is that people thought that it would be better not to alert the driver in case he stopped the train and the guys then tried to do a runner.

The only thing I am blaming Irish Rail for is the failure to provide any form of security on trains and for allowing the situation to persist where low-level anti-social behaviour is allowed to continue unchallenged. This has a tendency to develop into incidents like we've seen this week and ultimately, somebody is going to get seriously injured or killed as a result of it. It is not reasonable to expect a ticket collector to go in and stop a fight but it is reasonable to expect some effort made to keep headbangers off trains and for Irish Rail staff to monitor what is going on and arrange to remove people from trains if they are annoying other passengers. None of this is new - I only ever took the old 1817 train to Longford once, because it was a very scary place to be the only person in a carriage after Maynooth aside from a nutter with a 2-litre of Linden Village.

In terms of defending yourself with a fire extinguisher, you are generally Ok if you used something that was to hand as a weapon so long as you could reasonably be expected to have the item to hand. So if you had a sword, that is not cool but if you used a walking stick, that is Ok.

James,

Since time immemorial there has always been an emergency chord on a train. If people could figure out how to use that on 50 years ago on cravens/park royal sets, they should certainly be able to figure it out on an ICR. That no one pulled it is frankly staggering.

As for the safety information, there are announcements after each stop telling you to familiarise yourself with the safety information at the end of each coach. Have you?

As for staffing, are you seriously expecting every DART and commuter train to have staff on them, particularly given virtually every station now has a ticket machine? That would only mean extra cost which would mean even higher fares. Realistically, how often does anything like this ever happen?

We do need to put a bit of perspective here. Yes, we've had two serious incidents, which need to be dealt with, and I'm certainly not diminishing the incidents in any way shape or form, but when did anything like that happen before?

I'd be more concerned that as a society we aren't doing enough to combat the general issue of drug addiction - that's the root cause of all of this.

[James Howard]

On a related note there were two groups of very boisterous lads on the 1705 to Sligo this evening who were getting louder as the journey went on. They had taken over a vestibule so nobody could use the toilets or exit through those doors. It wasn't so bad when I got off at Edgeworthstown to be worth pulling the emergency cord but it wasn't far from it. There was no ticket checker on that half of the train but I did see the trolley-pusher in the next car as I was getting off. He was steering well clear in case anybody asked him to do anything.

So, although the station was closed, I knew there was an anti-social behaviour number posted on the door so I decided to ring to see if they could get somebody at Longford to have a word - this number isn't displayed anywhere in the train. So after I got off the train I did this and was rewarded with a recorded announcement saying that the number was a general customer-service number and to ring back after 9:30 AM on Monday.

So you can only report anti-social behaviour at unmanned stations or driver-only trains during office hours. And now I wait for the Irish Rail defenders to suggest that me not pulling the cord and delaying the train for 10 minutes by requiring the driver to come down the train to reset it makes me some sort of irresponsible person.

[ocian]

Originally Posted by James Howard

I did this and was rewarded with a recorded announcement saying that the number was a general customer-service number and to ring back after 9:30 AM on Monday.

That's a useful number they've got there

Bit of a ridiculous situation you ended up in James, and I've been in a similar one once or twice. I mean had you pulled the chord and the train stopped they might have gotten worse. In circumstances like this ringing such a number discreetly would have been ideal, if it actually connected to someone! Most incidences like this probably happen outside of office hours so this number sounds a bit redundant to me.

I know Mark had said previously that the driver will get the nearest security camera and decide to stop or not etc etc, but in a situation such as this you wouldn't pull the chord right beside the troublemakers or god knows what will happen. Instead you'll pull the next cord you see either at the other end of the carriage or the next carriage, so when the driver get's his CCTV camera all he see's is you pulling the chord and no emergency or troublemakers

I know staffing is an issue, but surely it can't be that hard for Irish Rail to have someone answer a phone outside of office hours?

[Jamie2k9]

Originally Posted by James Howard

On a related note there were two groups of very boisterous lads on the 1705 to Sligo this evening who were getting louder as the journey went on. They had taken over a vestibule so nobody could use the toilets or exit through those doors. It wasn't so bad when I got off at Edgeworthstown to be worth pulling the emergency cord but it wasn't far from it. There was no ticket checker on that half of the train but I did see the trolley-pusher in the next car as I was getting off. He was steering well clear in case anybody asked him to do anything.

So, although the station was closed, I knew there was an anti-social behaviour number posted on the door so I decided to ring to see if they could get somebody at Longford to have a word - this number isn't displayed anywhere in the train. So after I got off the train I did this and was rewarded with a recorded announcement saying that the number was a general customer-service number and to ring back after 9:30 AM on Monday.

So you can only report anti-social behaviour at unmanned stations or driver-only trains during office hours. And now I wait for the Irish Rail defenders to suggest that me not pulling the cord and delaying the train for 10 minutes by requiring the driver to come down the train to reset it makes me some sort of irresponsible person.

Could this be classed as an "emergency"?

Now when you say took over the vestibule, did they refuse to let people through?

You could of reported it to the driver at a station when he was stopped and knocked on the door or even went out to the platform and walked up. IE's twitter is generally good and well watched even outside office hours and weekends for alerting central control to problems on services. You could of called a station en route and ask them to have a word with the driver.

Had you pulled the emergency handle if this situation, you should of being fined IMO. Now I do agree IE could do more for passengers reporting problems.

[berneyarms]

That's exactly the sort of situation where the intercom with the driver (in the vestibule) should be used.

From the description it was anti-social behaviour and no one will get fined for reporting it via the intercom. To suggest that someone one get fined is daft.

[James Howard]

My worry was that driver would have to come down to reset it hence delaying the train and making matters worse. In Edgeworthstown, the Garda station is unmanned outside office hours so I figured I would be best getting in touch with Longford and having them deal with it - Longford is less than 10 minutes from Edgeworthstown and has one of two properly functioning Garda stations in the county.

They didn't exactly refuse but when I tried to get off they didn't move out of the doorway they were sitting in. Discretion being the better part of valour, I decided to use another exit rather than risk getting assaulted. There was also another group of them at the other end of the car who would have seen me contacting the driver and the trolley was blocking me from going any further.

To get to the driver, I would have had to have walked up two cars and passed them and I think they had opened the door to have a smoke. As I knew the number was posted, I figured that was the better option. I did my civic duty and attempted to contact Irish Rail - I decided it was up to somebody else on the train to take it further after that didn't work.

I tried twitter as well but as yet, no response. They do really need to provide some sort of working number you can ring or text. It is not difficult to provide one number for the whole country. Either that or just tell people to ring 999. It is quite difficult to use the communications handle without putting yourself at risk.

[Jamie2k9]

That's exactly the sort of situation where the intercom with the driver (in the vestibule) should be used.

From the description it was anti-social behaviour and no one will get fined for reporting it via the intercom. To suggest that someone one get fined is daft.

Yes intercom is fine but pulling the hammer in the coach isn't which is what I believe JH was referring to?

My worry was that driver would have to come down to reset it hence delaying the train and making matters worse. In Edgeworthstown, the Garda station is unmanned outside office hours so I figured I would be best getting in touch with Longford and having them deal with it - Longford is less than 10 minutes from Edgeworthstown and has one of two properly functioning Garda stations in the county.

They didn't exactly refuse but when I tried to get off they didn't move out of the doorway they were sitting in. Discretion being the better part of valour, I decided to use another exit rather than risk getting assaulted. There was also another group of them at the other end of the car who would have seen me contacting the driver and the trolley was blocking me from going any further.

To get to the driver, I would have had to have walked up two cars and passed them and I think they had opened the door to have a smoke. As I knew the number was posted, I figured that was the better option. I did my civic duty and attempted to contact Irish Rail - I decided it was up to somebody else on the train to take it further after that didn't work.

I tried twitter as well but as yet, no response. They do really need to provide some sort of working number you can ring or text. It is not difficult to provide one number for the whole country. Either that or just tell people to ring 999. It is quite difficult to use the communications handle without putting yourself at risk

Fair point, have had to climb over people unwilling to move but guess it just depends on the people your dealing with.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

My worry was that driver would have to come down to reset it hence delaying the train and making matters worse. In Edgeworthstown, the Garda station is unmanned outside office hours so I figured I would be best getting in touch with Longford and having them deal with it - Longford is less than 10 minutes from Edgeworthstown and has one of two properly functioning Garda stations in the county.

They didn't exactly refuse but when I tried to get off they didn't move out of the doorway they were sitting in. Discretion being the better part of valour, I decided to use another exit rather than risk getting assaulted. There was also another group of them at the other end of the car who would have seen me contacting the driver and the trolley was blocking me from going any further.

To get to the driver, I would have had to have walked up two cars and passed them and I think they had opened the door to have a smoke. As I knew the number was posted, I figured that was the better option. I did my civic duty and attempted to contact Irish Rail - I decided it was up to somebody else on the train to take it further after that didn't work.

I tried twitter as well but as yet, no response. They do really need to provide some sort of working number you can ring or text. It is not difficult to provide one number for the whole country. Either that or just tell people to ring 999. It is quite difficult to use the communications handle without putting yourself at risk.

Could you not use the intercom to the driver at the other end of the coach?

I appreciate your point, but there's a communication button at both ends of every coach - I certainly would not expect you to use the one beside these guys.

Having said all that - an office hours number is useless.

[ocian]

There's no point blaming James for not using the intercom at the end of the car, Irish Rail should provide a number that you can call out of office hours when calling the driver is too risky. I agree that maybe in this case James could have used the intercom had he known the phone number wouldn't work, but blaming him for not doing so is not right in my opinion.

One point I'd like to make is what do you do if you're on a commuter set which doesn't have intercoms like the ICRs do? As far as I can remember, 29000s only have the hammer (which is attached to the emergency chord above someone's seat) and the door release right next to it, both of which are in full view of everyone in the car. Had this incident occurred on a 29000 set, how could someone report the incident to the driver discreetly? This is why a phone number is needed.

[James Howard]

I couldn't use the intercom at the other end as there was another group drinking at the other end of the car and I was unsure if they were not just one large group split into two. Hence I didn't want to chance it. As I was about to get off the train anyway, I figured ringing the number was the better option.

It didn't occur to me that the posted anti-social behaviour number would only be answered 9 - 5. Pulling the cord is fine if you are on a train, but what if it was a woman on her own waiting for a train at a halt like Enfield or Kilcock where it is pretty normal for crowds of teenagers to hang around drinking. There is nobody there to call for help.

It is pretty outrageous that there is no Irish Rail number to call. Yes you can call the guards but in that case, it is quite likely that Irish Rail would never even find out about an incident at a station.

Given the recent take-no-prisoners attitude regarding fare evasion, who is to say what the response would be for using the intercom or emergency handle in a borderline situation. The risk of a fine is a serious disincentive from using it.

Maybe it would make sense on a Friday to designate a few cars as "party cars", the way the smoking cars used to be in the old days. If you wanted a quiet journey years ago, you went first class or non-smoking. If you wanted a game of cards and a few few beers, take a smoking car. I would always avoid the 1905 on a Friday as it is usually pretty rowdy but it is annoying if this is spreading back to the 1705 now.

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a 24 hour number, and that number is on the same poster as the anti social behaviour number.

01 8555454 is staffed 24-7-365 but is to be used only in the case of an accident or imminent risk to safety

You always have the option of leaving the train at a station and telling the driver. There are emergency communication equipment in all of the toilets also.

When at a station you can always call the gardai, unmanned stations have been around since the start of railways.

[Concerned Worker]

I find it extraordinary that a member of Rail Users Ireland with in excess of 660 posts does not know how to contact the Driver/Authorities in such a situation.

[comcor]

Originally Posted by Concerned Worker

I find it extraordinary that a member of Rail Users Ireland with in excess of 660 posts does not know how to contact the Driver/Authorities in such a situation.

I have roughly the same number of posts and don't know.

Anyway, it should be east to find out what to do even if you're a first time traveller.

[Jamie2k9]

Anyway, it should be east to find out what to do even if you're a first time traveller.

The on-board displays let people know about the emergency intercom to report problems to drivers regularly.

This situation was more passengers feeling intimidated.