Waterford Rosslare to close

[Ronald Binge]

Originally Posted by corktina

oh right so...its not the motorways that are a threat to IE, Its me.....!!!!

My point throughout is that IE need to wake up and smell the maxpax if they are going to fight Motorway competition. I won't take the train 9 times out 0f 10 because its slower and dearer and I've already paid for my car., and thats on "the busiest route in the country". What chance do the various even slower single lines have to compete once the chips are down?

Whichever way you cut it, motorways will slowly drain the passengers from InterCity.An example, one of my daughters went to Dublin not long ago and my son offered to drive her, saved her money and had a free day out in Dublin.

Maxpax? I prefer real coffee to instant, and on every occasion a train to a bus,and I'm not the only one. Sorry that human beings get in the way of your yellow pack public transport.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Ronald Binge

Maxpax? I prefer real coffee to instant, and on every occasion a train to a bus,and I'm not the only one. Sorry that human beings get in the way of your yellow pack public transport.

A balance needs to be struck. The more passengers, the more likely a service is to be financially viable, that add-ons will be available and the more willing the government will be to open the purse strings.

Originally Posted by iknowwhereiamgoing

Someone mentioned that in Germany that long distance coach services were not allowed to compete with the railways

The German situation may be about to change. The rule is that buses may not compete with trains unless the bus provides a significant advantage to the passenger. So in the Irish context a Ballina-Sligo bus would be allowed, but a Ballina-Westport might not and a Ballina-Dublin definitely wouldn't.

There was a court case where the ruling was that a material fare advantage could be considered a significant advantage. No doubt DB and the other railways will appeal.

[on the move]

The final Rosslare-Waterford Railcar train has arrived in Waterford. Only the return journey remains, where Campile, Ballycullane, Wellington Bridge, and Bridgetown await one final train before their stations closedown.

[iknowwhereiamgoing]

What a sad day for the rail network when one of Ireland's most scenic and historic railways is allowed to close without any attempt to run a decent service on the line. No attempt either to look outside the box to look at other possible income flows, like heritage and tourist trains trains to augment a decent regular timetable. There are a few lines in the UK where this has been tried successfully. Where there was once trains, now only the weeds will grow, like other mothballed lines, Keep fighting this.

[Mark Gleeson]

But this is the problem this continued assumption that some class of heritage based solution will work.

What has been shocking is the number of people who supposedly support railways who don't want private operation or used these events as a platform to address a grudge they have with Irish Rail or CIE.

The line is not closing, its being suspended which is quite different. Independent engineering consultants will review the line on a regular basis. If the line is not maintained in line with the agreed standard (which will go further than Irish Rail's proposal to the NTA) Irish Rail will be required by contract to sort it out.

Despite Irish Rail's desire to save money the reality is that if a private operator shows up (and that is not fanciful) Irish Rail will actually lose as much money as they did before. There is based on meetings last week full support from various government elements to ensure that Irish Rail permit and treat with respect any operator who arrives.

[on the move]

The line is closing Mark. It will never be re-opened again. While the idea of a private operator filling the gap is there, there is no serious possibility of the operator getting the considerable resources in place to run the service, and the line will go into disrepair, as did the other lines that were/have been closed for decades. If the current service wasn't viable to the state company, even a seasonal service wouldn't be viable to a private firm.

In any case, like with the Drogheda-Dublin disruption last year, once commuters get used to the bus, few if any will want to return to travel 50 kilometres by rail, when they could do the same distance more frequently in a little over half the time. The road network reigns supreme at the moment. The line may officially be "suspended", but in reality, it is shutting down permanently at 6.30 this evening.

A step backwards today in an already poor national service.

[Mark Gleeson]

With due respect you haven't met the NTA nor spoken to one of the private operators. Thanks to the EU cost wise the private operator only pays a charge based on network average cost so the high running costs of the line cannot be passed on to the private operator, so its good for us very bad for Irish Rail. If Irish Rail block a third party they will find themselves in trouble.

Irish Rail will be punished if the line is not maintained to the agreed standard.

And if you knew anything about Waterford Rosslare you would know the train is 30 minutes faster so the bus argument cannot hold.

[iknowwhereiamgoing]

I think there is some confusion in the last comment I made. I am in no way suggesting that this line could be totally maintained and run as a totally heritage operation. 35 miles and a major expensive to maintain bridge is beyond a mainly volunteer operation. All I was suggesting that the line's scenic qualities would to suitable for special trains in the summer months to augment a normal timetabled service. (For example the West Highland Line in Scotland) In no way am I opposed to a private company running this line or any other for that matter as long as a decent service is offered. I want to see the network flourish whether by private or public means. I would also like to see the Athenry - Tuam - Claremorris (western Rail Corridor) opened ASAP and the Midleton - Youghal commuter line. (That line is a more suitable candidate for a heritage operation but once again I would rather see it as a normal line with a heritage add on) You seem sure that the Waterford - Rosslare would be maintained in good condition as it was not closing. I beleive that the line to Youghal was not officially closed but look at the state of it now!!

[on the move]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

With due respect you haven't met the NTA nor spoken to one of the private operators. Thanks to the EU cost wise the private operator only pays a charge based on network average cost so the high running costs of the line cannot be passed on to the private operator, so its good for us very bad for Irish Rail. If Irish Rail block a third party they will find themselves in trouble.

Irish Rail will be punished if the line is not maintained to the agreed standard.

And if you knew anything about Waterford Rosslare you would know the train is 30 minutes faster so the bus argument cannot hold.

Raillines have been closed before, a few have only recently been re-opened following decades of inertia, many others remain closed. Unlike in the UK and across Europe, one operator rules the roost here with regard to rail transport, and they've just closed this line within the past hour.

Commuters will get used to the bus and will support it. As they did last year with a much busier traffic route. The roads are very good now, and will get better again leading to ever faster journey times.

I did the journey only last month, and I want the line to remain open to the public. However I know that realistically, it won't be opened again.

[dowlingm]

The notion that the private operator would pay average costs while IE pays the difference is interesting, but given the argument over community rating in the health sector the government must do a better job of managing the new entrant vs the relative gorilla that is CIE. Were a private operator to be able to apply for a relatively lucrative route by revenue but pay lower costs than IE itself would pay, this could destabilise IE finances.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by iknowwhereiamgoing

I beleive that the line to Youghal was not officially closed but look at the state of it now!!

I think that there needs to be a realisation that there has been a régime change. No longer is the situation run by the CIÉ "least resistance route" with a nod and wink from an indifferent department that only really got involved when there was a major problem and a ministerial team that was out for goodies for constituents.

While one can look at the NTA and think, jadedly, that its just a hived off bit of the DoT, one still needs to realise that there is a legally binding contract in place for the first time and that that contract is overseen, not in Dublin, but in Brussels ... and London, Paris, Amsterdam and Berlin where such contracts have been the norm for decades and that operators under such contracts are looking to expand their markets. While yes there are hurdles, the scene has changed utterly in the last 6 months.

[Traincustomer]

I fully agree that there has been a sea change in the regime and that the prospect of seeing passenger services on the line is quite real.

Understandably it's only human nature (based on past experiences) that many are sceptical of the line seeing passenger services again.

[haddockman]

Originally Posted by Cavanrailbus

I fully agree that there has been a sea change in the regime and that the prospect of seeing passenger services on the line is quite real.

Understandably it's only human nature (based on past experiences) that many are sceptical of the line seeing passenger services again.

Indeed.

It is an awful shame the line has been closed. Hopefully someone will open it again.

[dowlingm]

With Lenihan and Cowen looking to slash another 3bn I think the greater concern will be is there more where that closure came from, such as some or all of Nenagh branch, some or all of Limerick J-Waterford, perhaps Wexford-Rosslare Europort. Both Nenagh and Clonmel might be getting upgrades but CWR didn't save the South Wexford.

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

With Lenihan and Cowen looking to slash another 3bn I think the greater concern will be is there more where that closure came from, such as some or all of Nenagh branch, some or all of Limerick J-Waterford, perhaps Wexford-Rosslare Europort. Both Nenagh and Clonmel might be getting upgrades but CWR didn't save the South Wexford.

Only 6 miles were CWR. There rest is mostly jointed track over 100 years old.

[Mark Gleeson]

Old track doesn't really make a difference. Part of the DART line was carried on 1898 rails until 2002.

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by Kilocharlie

Only 6 miles were CWR. There rest is mostly jointed track over 100 years old.

Interesting - I thought there was more. No chance IE can swipe the CWR panels for somewhere else and put old panels there for the engineering trains?

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

Interesting - I thought there was more. No chance IE can swipe the CWR panels for somewhere else and put old panels there for the engineering trains?

That is what they normally do. Track being lifted from the Dublin-Cork line could or will be used to replace older track on branch lines.

Quote from http://www.nationaltransport.ie/down...trand_line.pdf

The service suspension will result in the section from Belview Port (79 miles 1320 yards) to Rosslare Strand (110 miles 880 yards) being out of regular use. This is 30.75 miles in length and consists of 6.2 miles of continuously welded track (CWR) and 24.55 of jointed track. The majority of this jointed track is original 87lb bull head rail dating from 1903 – 1906 in 45 foot lengths. The timber sleepers have been periodically replaced in a plan patching operation at the rate of about 1000 sleepers per year. The present situation (if passenger traffic continued) is that there is need to replace 26,400 sleepers on about 22.5 miles of this track as being close to life expired or relay the section with second-hand CWR.

[comcor]

How is the replacement bus service coping with current weather conditions?

[Mark Gleeson]

Its not

Bus cancelled or diverted since Monday

The service was pretty poor until now anyway and the NTA has been provided with details of missing/late/early buses