WOW!!!

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

Do IE get extra subsidies to run a cross border service from the EU? that a bus service wouldn't?

No, because the road the bus runs on got an EU subsidy to be built. Subsidies for everyone

[Colm Donoghue]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

No, because the road the bus runs on got an EU subsidy to be built. Subsidies for everyone

the M1 from Gormanstown(sp) to Ballymascanlon is a PPP. the tunnel on the M50 was paid by govt and I think the new N1 dual carriageway was mostly funded by the irish govt( as far as Armagh anyway)

[dowlingm]

http://www.n11.ie/News/PressReleases...t,2501,en.html

Over €700m has been invested to date in the upgrading of the M1 to motorway standard. A substantial contribution - €270m – was made by the European Union through the European Regional Development Fund and the Cohesion Fund. EU Commissioner for Regional Policy and Institutional Reform, Mr. Michel Barnier, said, “It is important to emphasise that the M1 has a European dimension which has two important aspects:

• Firstly, the main reason that all the projects along the M1 attracted such important investment from the European Union was because European Heads of State designated certain transport corridors as Trans European Priorities. This led directly to a concentration of resources in line with national and European priorities. From a European perspective the M1 is a designated part of the Ireland-UK-Benelux corridor.
• Secondly, significant investment from the Structural Funds and the Cohesion Fund have been made in the M1 over many years. At least €270m have been made available to all the projects that have led to the completion of the M1 as far as Dundalk. This is clearly a significant act of European solidarity. Completion of this major section of the M1 is a national and a European success story.”

[Terrontress]

I don't think most people care who funds the roads (except for when they have to pay through the wretched toll booths).

Is it fair to say that Dublin - Belfast is not a long enough journey to operate the kind of service they are attempting to?

How would a service with a lower ticket price, operating every 30 minutes, in a four carriage train which stops at the same stops at present go?

Don't forget that when the Sheepbridge to Cloghogue section of the A1 opens and the Westlink upgrade is complete it will be possible to drive from Antrim to Dublin in 2 hours never mind taking the train from Belfast to Dublin.

I think the key is making the train convenient rather than trying to emulate a long distance European service.

[dowlingm]

Terrontress - I think 104 miles road distance is long enough for rail. The problem is that the existing track follows the commuter need rather than long distance need. The intercity track alignment is now substantially longer than the M1/A1 road distance, particularly with the curve around to Skerries and the curve around to Portadown.

A similar new track from Newry-Banbridge-Lisburn would reduce track mileage from about 47 miles to 37 miles (don't have a rail atlas, perhaps someone can give the exact current number from Belfast-Newry) - to get the same time reduction a 90 mph train would have to be replaced with one that could do 120mph, allowing for extra acceleration and deceleration time combined with trains, track and signals to handle it.

If there had been enough imagination at the Department of Transport, a similar alignment in the M1 median from north of Dunleer to north of Malahide would have given Enterprise a clear run around Drogheda/Skerries/Balbriggan/Donabate traffic a long way into Fingal, not to mention avoiding the single track across the Boyne in Drogheda. Too late now.

[Terrontress]

Yeah, you have a point there.

I remember as a student taking the train to Coleraine and the train having to go West to Lisburn instead of just heading North. Of course they reopened the Bleach Green line to fix that yet the trains to Dublin still have to head West.

I think too many resources have been put into the line now to alter the route as we would be left with high speed line from Belfast to Newry via Lisburn, without any high speed trains on them.

I think that the only way for rail to compete is convenience. My cousin lives in Glasgow and travels to Edinburgh frequently. Although it is a shorter journey, they are similar in terms of being major population centres. The trains are so frequent that he never checks the timetables. Just turns up and buys his ticket.

If we could get a very frequent service with a decent, fast railcar, drinks trolley leaving from Great Victoria Street then does anyone think it might pump a bit of life back into the service?

I need to confess now that I have no knowledge on the operation of or costs of running a railway.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I must apologise for de-railing this thread with the bus thing. Anyway, some things have popped up on thread:

1. 300kph running Dublin to Belfast is an unacceptable waste of money.

2. The focus of a rialway company on intercity routes must be to compete with the airlines. On commuter sections it must focus on competing with the motor car and buses. I posted before about the absudity of IE getting rid of first-class meals on the 1705 to Limerick, I understand they are coming back. This is because they have lost a shedload of revenue. The Cork service is competing against Ryanair, make no mistake about it, the Enterprise service must focus on AL and Ryanair as well and what Enterprise must do is focus on the areas where the airlines are weak: direct point to point in the city centres, outstanding comfort and dining facilities, modern and top of the range communication/mobile office compatability.

3. To improve the Enterprise service merely needs an upgrade of the stock to meet those requirements, the elimination as much as possible of commuter loadings including expess tracking where possible like the KRP, and the introduction of an hourly timetable that goes on the hour from each end and starts at 6.00am both ends and finishes at 11.00pm both ends.

[dowlingm]

Thomas, I don't think anyone's advocating building an 320km/h "LGV NornIron".

True 125mph sets signalling and trackage (not 100mph sets in short stretches between PSRs and TSRs) segregated from commuter should not be too much to ask in open country however, especially if it radically reduces track mileage. After all, the cost of fourtracking is not minor given that the land is likely to cost more whereas a direct route is likely less built up, the disruption to service required for track and station work to accommodate it not to mention over/underpass widening and so on. We're not talking about the entire length either, just starting with stretches that are clearly not direct like Newry-Lisburn.

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

To improve the Enterprise service merely needs an upgrade of the stock to meet those requirements, the elimination as much as possible of commuter loadings including expess tracking where possible like the KRP, and the introduction of an hourly timetable that goes on the hour from each end and starts at 6.00am both ends and finishes at 11.00pm both ends.

I can't see that timetable happening without tearing up the DART service...

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by tralph

I can't see that timetable happening without tearing up the DART service...

Its not that hard to do, there is flexibility in the system.

[Terrontress]

I really don't think the airlines are any competition to the Enterprise. Even if a plane were to leave Belfast City Airport for Dublin, you have to arrive in good time, check in any luggage, hang around waiting for the plane to load. Onboard the plane the seats are cramped and you have to go through the safety instructions. On arrival, you have to wait 5 minutes to leave the plane, queue for a few minutes to show your passport / ID to a disinterested Garda and then you find yourself at Dublin Airport which is as expensive into town as the train from Belfast and can, at peak times take as long to get to the city centre as it does to get the train from Belfast.

All these drawbacks I mention above would hold true for any class of rolling stock.

I am considering the train for my next trip to London as I think that flying is just such a hassle!

[Mark Gleeson]

We have looked at the numbers and despite all the hot air from IE there is heaps of space for extra trains through Connolly

You just need to start with a clean sheet and think logically and to get the best result be prepared to spend a small amount on small capital items

[packetswitch]

Originally Posted by Terrontress

I am considering the train for my next trip to London as I think that flying is just such a hassle!

Minor plug - I maintain a page on the various different ways to get to London (by air or sea) at this link; it may be of some help. Most of the hits appear to come from broke backpackers with heavy rucksacks so it's not to everyone's taste

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Terrontress

then you find yourself at Dublin Airport which is as expensive into town as the train from Belfast and can, at peak times take as long to get to the city centre as it does to get the train from Belfast.

Cheapest bus from Airport to city centre is €1.60 and takes about an hour.

Most expensive is €7 and takes nearly as long.

For €6, you can get a 747/748 to Connolly / Heuston / Busarás in 30 minutes.

For €18.30 for five Rambler tickets (€3.66 each), you can get a 747/748 to Connolly / Heuston / Busarás in 30 minutes and use it for the rest of the day on all normal services.