LUAS operators criticised over peak-time fare increase - Page 2

2Funki4Wheelz · 05-01-2007, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

I was the tram that left you behind, myself and Thomas Stamp where out on a mission and we could see a wall of people coming through Heuston for the tram

There where seats available, but we would have to pay 10% more from Monday

The one morning I was late and missed everyone!

What about the Luas add on for the train tickets, they can't get the peak-time surcharge in there, has it gone up anyway?

Mark Gleeson · 05-01-2007, 12:17

The 5:30 arrived 8:39 into P7, I was standing there at the ticket desk up there

The wall moved quickly and boarded a tram, I arrived to see the tram leave and then the shuttle opened and we all piled in, there where seats available

I stood at the very back door and could see the crowds surging off the Waterford train through Heuston the quick ones made it, then we left

The tram behind us was half way down the hill, matter of 2 minutes behind us

Luas add on is now 1:20 and it is impossible to enforce a congestion charge on it

alek smart · 05-01-2007, 12:46

CJH may well be maturing nicely in the manner of a Grand Crù but this little nonsense piece confirms that his ghostly ethos still wanders abroad in the Corridors of Power.

In an era where Corporate Spin is required on every facet of what should be simple management stuff what we have here is merely a Fare Increase.

Now some bright young thing in the RPA reckons that Fare Increases on top of an already high fare structure are Bad Karma to announce,so hey !! lets disguise it so that NOBODY knows what it really is.

Smoke and Mirrors,Snake Oil ....same principle applies.

The RPA,coming as they do from the Civil Service stable are creatures of habit and it can safely be assumed that some dry-oul-shyte in the Dept of Transport ran a beady eye over the figures before giving the nod to publish them.

If this outfit had any bit of committment to their own "Smart(ish) Card system or to the principle of improving operational efficiency then its announcement would have been as follows.

"THE RPA WISH TO ANNOUNCE THE FOLLOWING MAJOR INCREASES IN LUAS CASH FARES FROM 8th JAN 2007 :

ALL CASH FARES WILL NOW BE €4. ADULT €2 CHILD.

HOWEVER.................THOSE PASSENGERS WISHING TO AVAIL OF DISCOUNTED LUAS TRAVEL MAY PURCHASE PRE-PAID TICKETS OR REUSABLE LUAS SMART-CARD AND ENJOY TRAVEL AT 2005 FARES.

FOR EVEN GREATER SAVINGS CHECKOUT A TAXSAVER SEASON TICKET."

Cool eh ?

Now that would get the heaving sweating masses twittering.

Staying with the Taxsaver scheme.
This particular concept has great potential to morph into a "Universal" travel card scheme IF it were to recieve some serious input from the relevant authorities.

With almost every citizen in the State in possession of a Revenue number there is huge scope for a properly run and HEAVILY discounted National Public Transport Fare structure.

Instead we remain mired down in a mish mash of infighting as the various agencies and operators attempt to promote their own schemes in the vacuum provided by Central Government.

HOWEVER....All of the above pales into insignificance when put alongside Daves list...and item 3 in particular.

Electricity Supply Difficulties....?
I hope P11 is watching this particular Bernouli Ball........Power Supply Problems....?
Was not Luas designed from its inception as an ELECTRICALLY powered system..or am I not aware of something here?

Did William Dargan leave a hidden stash of plans for a Steam Powered Luas which was found in Heuston Stn and Modified to run on the Oul Electric ?

Was the Original Luas meant to run on the Atmospheric Principle ?

Something tells me that there`s the making of a scandal lurking here.....forget that oul missing 10 metre section...if we havent enough shillings to put in the meter we can whistle dixie !!!

Mark Gleeson · 05-01-2007, 12:57

Luas spec is 40m tram every 2.5 minutes, plently of power available, the DART electrics are rated to 200% load for 15 minutes, 150% for 1 hour just in case you need the juice, the Luas would have similar spec at the substation

The smartcard would be grand except, it doesn't apply all day rambler fares so you pay more if you make several journeys that you need.

The TVM's can in theory sell smartcards

What would the DTA do here?

Bear in mind I travelled on two trams between 8am and 9am each of which where not even close to full but the RPA would charge a congestion charge on a uncongested service.

As pointed out Luas fares are excessive and the Luas is running a surplus (order of 6 figures a month). The RPA was authorised a 2.75% on average increase in fares NOT a 2.75% increase in revenue

Colm Donoghue · 05-01-2007, 14:19

Correct me if I'm mistaken here.
The city centre connection on mainline train tickets to Heuston was a euro, is now a euro and twenty cents?
or a twenty percent increase in fare?

Alek, I presume you've read the auld guf about the non-integrated smart cards set up by the rpa on the rpa's own website. This avoids the pressing need for an rpasucks.com website to point out their own uselesness. Which is nice.

The biggest mistake in all this auld smartcard shy te is the new train barriers not having any apparent smartcard reader.

you are correct in your fare increase announcement. you left out a line to say that reductions would occur for travel outside peak time though as was pointed out earlier.

alek smart · 05-01-2007, 14:22

Quote : The RPA was authorised a 2.75% on average increase in fares NOT a 2.75% increase in revenue

Cutting to the chase........What body/Individual did the Authorising..?
The Chinese Walls so beloved by Civil Servants everywhere are designed with a sinle purpose in mind......Deflection

This ensures that responsibility can be successfully avoided and promotion can be easily achieved based upon the success of how one uses the basic formula.

Forget CIE,Veolia,RPA etc etc.....Knock on the Ministers Door....Truman was Correct......"The Buck Stops HERE"

Mark Gleeson · 05-01-2007, 14:40

Its all smoke and mirrors

We have the cover up on the capacity where the 'electrical supply' is the excuse when the system was designed to take much higher frequencies

As far as I understand under the Act the RPA have total commerical control and can set fares as they please with no requirement to justify or consult on them

Dave · 05-01-2007, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Luas spec is 40m tram every 2.5 minutes, plently of power available, the DART electrics are rated to 200% load for 15 minutes, 150% for 1 hour just in case you need the juice, the Luas would have similar spec at the substation

So the RPA were fibbing then. In theory they could double capacity without affecting the power supply.

Dublin City Council refusing to give trams more priority at junctions is true though which obviously has knock on effects in the amount of trams they can schedule between Heuston and Connolly.

Mark Gleeson · 05-01-2007, 15:12

Traffic priority is the issue. Connolly Jervis is the problem its fine elsewhere

2Funki4Wheelz · 05-01-2007, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Traffic priority is the issue. Connolly Jervis is the problem its fine elsewhere

In what country does traffic get priority over public transport??
Let's have a line of six cars with one person in each block a road so a packed tram gets held up for 10 mins. Or better at Jervis, lets let giant goods lorries hold everything up cos they can't fit around corners etc. Or around Bargaintown, let the traffic just hit the Luas as they break red lights.

(

And the other public transport services are guilty too, blocking the Luas like the buses at Busaras edging two-inches that blocks the tram, and double deckers on the yellow boxes in O'Connell St.)

Rant over.

Colm Moore · 08-01-2007, 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by alek smart

Something tells me that there`s the making of a scandal lurking here.....forget that oul missing 10 metre section...if we havent enough shillings to put in the meter we can whistle dixie !!!

MAke the 10m sections diesel?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Funki4Wheelz

In what country does traffic get priority over public transport?? Let's have a line of six cars with one person in each block a road so a packed tram gets held up for 10 mins.

In fairness it can mean one tram holding up say 20 buses. 400 people -v- 1,500.

Thomas J Stamp · 08-01-2007, 10:44

The LUAS that did the shuttle from Heuston to Connolly went back to the Red Cow depot on its rerurn, thus begging the question why it cant run all day.

Situation is that it comes in from Tallaght in the am, goes from Connolly vback to Heuston and waits. We saw a yellow jacket radio the driver to open up (it was parked in the middle platform) as soon as the Waterford train came in, suggesting there was someone else inside Heuston also on the radio informing them of the arrivial of the train.

Result was the few people who had gathered since the last LUAS hopped onto the shuttle, as the next LUAS was 2 min behind. As we pulled off the next was heading down the hill, just as a massive crowd appeared.

When we got off our half empty at Jervis we waited for the next LUAS, it was packed, surprise surprise.

Now, why couldnt they have operated the tannoy or simply shoutted that the shuttle would leave after the regular tram from Tallaght, and there was plenty of room on it, it could have gone straight after it, making use of resources the best way. Instead the shuttle was half empty, and reguar service packed to the gills.

You really do have to go out and see these things in action before you spot how a little tweak can make things better.

As for congestion charge: Heres a radical idea, if you want to get people to catch the LUAS off peak reduce the off peak fare, dont raise the peak fare b y such a small amount that it wouldnt detare anyone. Otherwise it just looks liek a cheap way of scamming money.

Mark Gleeson · 08-01-2007, 10:49

If this is really a 'congestion charge'.

There should be no extra charge on outbound services in the morning peak, since they are quiet.

Tallaght Heuston should be exempt since the bulk of the demand is in the central zone.

There was a Veoila guy on the concourse in Heuston at 8:40. Now I clearly saw that the Waterford train had rolled into P5 and the crowd was moving quickly across the concourse maybe 20 made it the other few hundred where still inside Heuston

MrX · 10-01-2007, 13:46

It's utter nonsense increasing the fare at peak times.

I mean do they really think people take crammed Luas trams at 8am because they enjoy the feeling of being squashed !?

Or are they in cahoots with the oil companies and are trying to drive people back to their cars ?

It's totally contrary to what we need to be doing to reduce CO2 output anyway.

Colm Donoghue · 10-01-2007, 14:15

It's not an increase at peak times.
All fares have increased except single tickets bought outside the morning peak.

The rpa have decided to blind people with bull and avoiding the issue of *all* tickets going up by creating a small storm in a teacup elsewhere.

Thomas J Stamp · 10-01-2007, 14:29

All tickets have gone up.

But on top of that there is an extra charge at peak times.

Donal Quinn · 11-01-2007, 11:23

todays IT

Quote:

Luas Green line may get 25% more trams for morning rush

Tim O'Brien

Thu, Jan 11, 2007

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) is "actively considering" proposals for a 25 per cent increase in the number of trams it runs on Dublin's Green line during the morning peak time.

The agency has also ordered four new 40-metre trams for the Green line and recently deployed one additional tram from the Red line, in a bid to address demand, particularly in the morning peak.

However, the agency said it is not currently considering running shuttle trams on the inner stretches of the line, as it does between Heuston and Connolly stations on the Red Line.

The moves come as commuters are frequently unable to board morning peak-time trams, which are full by the time they reach Dundrum on the journey from Sandyford to the city centre.

An RPA spokesman said that a delay during yesterday's morning peak, which led to a build-up of commuters at each tram stop, was an unusual event caused by the need to call an ambulance for a passenger at the Harcourt Street stop. The delay occurred at about 8.55am and resulted in further hold-ups.

However, regular commuters have complained of gaps in frequency which result in crowds massing on platforms. In that case commuters may not be able to board a succession of trams.

Currently trams are scheduled to run between Sandyford and the city centre at four-minute intervals, but the agency acknowledges "a very particular problem" within the morning rush.

The spokesman told The Irish Times a decision to move to a three-minute frequency had not been finalised "but is under active consideration".

"Basically there is a problem between 8.15am and 8.45am, so we are looking at a three-minute frequency." He added that it was one of a number of measures which included an order for four more trams. But he warned these trams have a "lead-in" time of about 18 months before they are delivered.
© 2007 The Irish Times

Colm Moore · 13-01-2007, 04:16

While I realise that they have to buy trams at intervals to avoid block-obsolesence (needing to retire all the trams at the same time), but why are they making piecemeal orders of 4 trams? Surely they should order enough for C1 (2 trams) and A1 (2 trams?) now also and even add for BX.

We all know the trams will be used, even if one of these projects doesn't go ahead.

Mark Gleeson · 13-01-2007, 20:54

A tender was issued ages ago for more trams

The contract is based a minimum order with options for more

Derek Wheeler · 14-01-2007, 00:41

Not enough trams. Not long enough and basically luas can't cope or offer any more capacity during peak. Just like the DART circa 1984, it has been left alone to do its job. Operators call it a success, but the reality clearly allays to the fact that it is hopelessly inadequate without more initiatives in the public transport area. T21 is over a year after announcement, but not a single digger etc. has moved anywhere with serious intent. Believe me folks, the partial reopening of the WRC will happen while Dublin continues to implode.

08-01-2007, 10:44	#32
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	The LUAS that did the shuttle from Heuston to Connolly went back to the Red Cow depot on its rerurn, thus begging the question why it cant run all day. Situation is that it comes in from Tallaght in the am, goes from Connolly vback to Heuston and waits. We saw a yellow jacket radio the driver to open up (it was parked in the middle platform) as soon as the Waterford train came in, suggesting there was someone else inside Heuston also on the radio informing them of the arrivial of the train. Result was the few people who had gathered since the last LUAS hopped onto the shuttle, as the next LUAS was 2 min behind. As we pulled off the next was heading down the hill, just as a massive crowd appeared. When we got off our half empty at Jervis we waited for the next LUAS, it was packed, surprise surprise. Now, why couldnt they have operated the tannoy or simply shoutted that the shuttle would leave after the regular tram from Tallaght, and there was plenty of room on it, it could have gone straight after it, making use of resources the best way. Instead the shuttle was half empty, and reguar service packed to the gills. You really do have to go out and see these things in action before you spot how a little tweak can make things better. As for congestion charge: Heres a radical idea, if you want to get people to catch the LUAS off peak reduce the off peak fare, dont raise the peak fare b y such a small amount that it wouldnt detare anyone. Otherwise it just looks liek a cheap way of scamming money. __________________ We are the passengers

10-01-2007, 14:29	#36
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	All tickets have gone up. But on top of that there is an extra charge at peak times. __________________ We are the passengers

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05-01-2007, 12:17	#22
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	The 5:30 arrived 8:39 into P7, I was standing there at the ticket desk up there The wall moved quickly and boarded a tram, I arrived to see the tram leave and then the shuttle opened and we all piled in, there where seats available I stood at the very back door and could see the crowds surging off the Waterford train through Heuston the quick ones made it, then we left The tram behind us was half way down the hill, matter of 2 minutes behind us Luas add on is now 1:20 and it is impossible to enforce a congestion charge on it

05-01-2007, 12:46	#23
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	CJH may well be maturing nicely in the manner of a Grand Crù but this little nonsense piece confirms that his ghostly ethos still wanders abroad in the Corridors of Power. In an era where Corporate Spin is required on every facet of what should be simple management stuff what we have here is merely a Fare Increase. Now some bright young thing in the RPA reckons that Fare Increases on top of an already high fare structure are Bad Karma to announce,so hey !! lets disguise it so that NOBODY knows what it really is. Smoke and Mirrors,Snake Oil ....same principle applies. The RPA,coming as they do from the Civil Service stable are creatures of habit and it can safely be assumed that some dry-oul-shyte in the Dept of Transport ran a beady eye over the figures before giving the nod to publish them. If this outfit had any bit of committment to their own "Smart(ish) Card system or to the principle of improving operational efficiency then its announcement would have been as follows. "THE RPA WISH TO ANNOUNCE THE FOLLOWING MAJOR INCREASES IN LUAS CASH FARES FROM 8th JAN 2007 : ALL CASH FARES WILL NOW BE €4. ADULT €2 CHILD. HOWEVER.................THOSE PASSENGERS WISHING TO AVAIL OF DISCOUNTED LUAS TRAVEL MAY PURCHASE PRE-PAID TICKETS OR REUSABLE LUAS SMART-CARD AND ENJOY TRAVEL AT 2005 FARES. FOR EVEN GREATER SAVINGS CHECKOUT A TAXSAVER SEASON TICKET." Cool eh ? Now that would get the heaving sweating masses twittering. Staying with the Taxsaver scheme. This particular concept has great potential to morph into a "Universal" travel card scheme IF it were to recieve some serious input from the relevant authorities. With almost every citizen in the State in possession of a Revenue number there is huge scope for a properly run and HEAVILY discounted National Public Transport Fare structure. Instead we remain mired down in a mish mash of infighting as the various agencies and operators attempt to promote their own schemes in the vacuum provided by Central Government. HOWEVER....All of the above pales into insignificance when put alongside Daves list...and item 3 in particular. Electricity Supply Difficulties....? I hope P11 is watching this particular Bernouli Ball........Power Supply Problems....? Was not Luas designed from its inception as an ELECTRICALLY powered system..or am I not aware of something here? Did William Dargan leave a hidden stash of plans for a Steam Powered Luas which was found in Heuston Stn and Modified to run on the Oul Electric ? Was the Original Luas meant to run on the Atmospheric Principle ? Something tells me that there`s the making of a scandal lurking here.....forget that oul missing 10 metre section...if we havent enough shillings to put in the meter we can whistle dixie !!!

05-01-2007, 12:57	#24
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Luas spec is 40m tram every 2.5 minutes, plently of power available, the DART electrics are rated to 200% load for 15 minutes, 150% for 1 hour just in case you need the juice, the Luas would have similar spec at the substation The smartcard would be grand except, it doesn't apply all day rambler fares so you pay more if you make several journeys that you need. The TVM's can in theory sell smartcards What would the DTA do here? Bear in mind I travelled on two trams between 8am and 9am each of which where not even close to full but the RPA would charge a congestion charge on a uncongested service. As pointed out Luas fares are excessive and the Luas is running a surplus (order of 6 figures a month). The RPA was authorised a 2.75% on average increase in fares NOT a 2.75% increase in revenue

05-01-2007, 14:19	#25
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	Correct me if I'm mistaken here. The city centre connection on mainline train tickets to Heuston was a euro, is now a euro and twenty cents? or a twenty percent increase in fare? Alek, I presume you've read the auld guf about the non-integrated smart cards set up by the rpa on the rpa's own website. This avoids the pressing need for an rpasucks.com website to point out their own uselesness. Which is nice. The biggest mistake in all this auld smartcard shy te is the new train barriers not having any apparent smartcard reader. you are correct in your fare increase announcement. you left out a line to say that reductions would occur for travel outside peak time though as was pointed out earlier.

05-01-2007, 14:22	#26
alek smart Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 144	Quote : The RPA was authorised a 2.75% on average increase in fares NOT a 2.75% increase in revenue Cutting to the chase........What body/Individual did the Authorising..? The Chinese Walls so beloved by Civil Servants everywhere are designed with a sinle purpose in mind......Deflection This ensures that responsibility can be successfully avoided and promotion can be easily achieved based upon the success of how one uses the basic formula. Forget CIE,Veolia,RPA etc etc.....Knock on the Ministers Door....Truman was Correct......"The Buck Stops HERE"

05-01-2007, 14:40	#27
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Its all smoke and mirrors We have the cover up on the capacity where the 'electrical supply' is the excuse when the system was designed to take much higher frequencies As far as I understand under the Act the RPA have total commerical control and can set fares as they please with no requirement to justify or consult on them

05-01-2007, 15:12	#29
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Traffic priority is the issue. Connolly Jervis is the problem its fine elsewhere

08-01-2007, 10:49	#33
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	If this is really a 'congestion charge'. There should be no extra charge on outbound services in the morning peak, since they are quiet. Tallaght Heuston should be exempt since the bulk of the demand is in the central zone. There was a Veoila guy on the concourse in Heuston at 8:40. Now I clearly saw that the Waterford train had rolled into P5 and the crowd was moving quickly across the concourse maybe 20 made it the other few hundred where still inside Heuston

10-01-2007, 13:46	#34
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	It's utter nonsense increasing the fare at peak times. I mean do they really think people take crammed Luas trams at 8am because they enjoy the feeling of being squashed !? Or are they in cahoots with the oil companies and are trying to drive people back to their cars ? It's totally contrary to what we need to be doing to reduce CO2 output anyway.

10-01-2007, 14:15	#35
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	It's not an increase at peak times. All fares have increased except single tickets bought outside the morning peak. The rpa have decided to blind people with bull and avoiding the issue of all tickets going up by creating a small storm in a teacup elsewhere.

13-01-2007, 04:16	#38
Colm Moore Local Liaison Officer Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,442	While I realise that they have to buy trams at intervals to avoid block-obsolesence (needing to retire all the trams at the same time), but why are they making piecemeal orders of 4 trams? Surely they should order enough for C1 (2 trams) and A1 (2 trams?) now also and even add for BX. We all know the trams will be used, even if one of these projects doesn't go ahead.

13-01-2007, 20:54	#39
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	A tender was issued ages ago for more trams The contract is based a minimum order with options for more

14-01-2007, 00:41	#40
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	Not enough trams. Not long enough and basically luas can't cope or offer any more capacity during peak. Just like the DART circa 1984, it has been left alone to do its job. Operators call it a success, but the reality clearly allays to the fact that it is hopelessly inadequate without more initiatives in the public transport area. T21 is over a year after announcement, but not a single digger etc. has moved anywhere with serious intent. Believe me folks, the partial reopening of the WRC will happen while Dublin continues to implode.