Gorey Train Services

[Mark Gleeson]

They looked at it, about 400 million to sort it out. The evaluation numbers came back exceptionally negative, even worse than the WRC

[dowlingm]

Pity about that - but you've provided a good index Mark

"I've looked at the numbers - it's pretty bad!"

"Jayz - how much would we lose"

"More than the WRC bud!"

[Pierce]

I was reading something on this line and in 1996 from Bray to Connolly it took 20mins so it can be done. Its just you have block-ups like the Dart and the Dart in front of that Dart. Then reaching Pearse you have the Maynooth and Drogheda Commuters. Perhaps if Iarnrod Eireann were to do this it would mean travelling in the wrong track a number of times. It just gets messing best time 25 to 27mins.

[KSW]

Bray right through to Dun Laoghaire that section is fine. I think from Dun Laoghaire to Dublin's Connolly station that section needs working on. There is a train that leaves Dublin's Pearse station and arrives in Dun Laoghaire 10mins later, Does anyone care to guess?

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a train that manages it in 8 minutes 30 seconds, it comes at the price of a 21 minute gap between Dart services

[KSW]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

There is a train that manages it in 8 minutes 30 seconds, it comes at the price of a 21 minute gap between Dart services

You are quick !,Yes the 13:35 Connolly/Rosslare service from Pearse 13:40 and arrives Dun Laoghaire 13:49. But thats just it (I'm guessing over 200 journeys on this service I have done) the train is either 7 to 10mins late everytime on this section and catches up time along the Bray-Arklow line. I was just thinking is this possible and not just on paper. The 18:37 Rosslare service is the worst service for time always,always over 7mins late to Dun Laoghaire and magically at Rathdrum it catches up with the 10-15mins of lost time. Magic

[shweeney]

yeah, to run a very fast service (and I believe Connolly - Bray in a little over 20 mins is possible - it is only 13 miles) you need a very big gap between Darts. The only way around this is to build a 3rd line (impossible) or allow bi-directional running which I think Mark has pointed out can't be done between DunL and Bray at present.

[Mark Gleeson]

The fastest time for Connolly Bray is listed as 25 minutes under the 4am in the morning scenerio

Under real conditions you are looking at 30 minutes.

Bi directional signalling isn't worth the trouble since the Dun Laoghaire Dalkey section is very slow so the fast train hasn't got much chance to overtake, also there are trains going the other way.

Three tracks from Killiney into Bray would be fairly feasible allowing two trains to arrive/depart Bray at the same time.

The problem with the route is all the time savings which are feasible are all south of Arklow so the benefit is not there for most passengers

[KSW]

Hate to bring this back up again but on the Rosslare/Gorey timetables it has for example from Wicklow to Rathdrum 13-14mins and it can be done with 10mins knocking of 2mins its the same along the route. Why dont they have 11mins from Wicklow-Rathdrum and etc down through the route.. It will save 12mins from Bray-Gorey making it an Hour rather than the 1hr10mins... Bray to Gorey 1hr which is good then from Bray-Connolly 27mins as you suggested giving a journey time of 1hr27mins knocking off the 1hr40 and 1hr50 times.... The potential is there already !!

[paddyb180285]

Here is an interesting link I found regarding the Dublin-Rosslare railway route:
www.transport.ie/upload/general/9799-0.doc
It was a letter sent to the Department Of Transport on September of this year by John J Byrne, Director of the Mid-East Regional Authority.It complains about the single track nature of the route and how it is considered a draw back to the future development of the services along the route. The mere fact that Rosslare has ferry connections to the UK and mainland Europe should make it a high priority for Irish Rail.

[Mark Gleeson]

If someone had about 500 million to spare that would be just enough to sort out the current line and it would still be single

Single track isn't the problem its the twisty hilly nature of the line in Wicklow

[KSW]

Mark have Iarnrod Eireann considered tilting the track it does prove to be a winner as like in the UK and Germany......

[paddyb180285]

Mark, making this stretch a double track would surely help increase the frequency after 2008/9 when the frequency of these services will be running at capacity on a mostly single track line. I know that doubling the track would cost many hundreds of millions but trains would be able to go faster between stations with out worrying about the timing of oncoming trains. While I am aware of the bends and cliffs on this stretch of track at places like Bray-Greystones, there are certainly long stretches that are straight where trains could speed up even more thereby reducing journey times. KeithStephen, I like what you said about tilting!

In another forum you mentioned that Irish Bus have a more frequent bus route. However, I personally think it is madness operating bus routes along corridors which have railways. I would have thought that buses were put there to cater for places relatively more out of reach from railway transportation. I would be interested to know what the costs are of operating buses and trains in this country. The reason for this is that buses seem to be a lot cheaper to use than trains. Is the main reason for the price difference tied in with the speed and comfort of the journey or do trains generally cost more to operate? If it is just a case of higher cost for speed and comfort than Irish Rail are loosing out. Irish Rail and Irish Bus are still subsidiaries of CIE.

In the last century a lot of infrastructure was either dismantled or burried which would have been put to great use today. I am aware that Letterkenny used to have a railway line. Today, it is a very popular town for students at the Letterkenny Institute of Technology. I am pretty sure that if there was a railway line there today students would opt for it instead of taking the bus. I have heard that this particular bus takes 4 hours with a break in between. However, I have heard that at a very bad time it can take as long as 6 or maybe 7 hours to complete the journey. The journey times of buses are less definite than that experienced on trains as they are exposed to the traffic jams currently crippling the road network. The mere fact that Irish Bus operate a more frequent journey to Gorey or Rosslare shows that there is a high demand for public transportation to these areas. It is just a matter of alocating these commuters to railway based transportation with feeder buses from the towns to the rural areas.

[Mark Gleeson]

A serious study was done a number of years ago

Few facts
The South Eastern line has the lowest catchment of all radial routes and the least potential for growth
The line the route follows is heavily restricted by curves and hills
The assesment even after a massive investment indicated a hugely negative return
Even single the line can manage 3 trains per hour over its length once the new signalling goes in

Put simply the same investment spent elsewhere on the network would result in a much higher return, success is measured in bums on seats

Note the Sligo line is single for the most part can manage a train every 2 hours as of January

Talking about two tracks is total pie in the sky, it distracts people from the key issues on the ground
1. Journey times are not as tight as they could be in places, new signalling will address this
2. Evening services don't exist
3. No evening commuter service on a Saturday
4. There is potential particularly south of Arklow to speed things up, wait and see

Those are the real issues

[Colm Donoghue]

Bus Eireann don't pay for the new roads, only the coaches.
Iarnrod Eireann pay for the tracks and the trains.

Paddy, it's is not madness to provide a coach service in parallel with a train service when the coach service is faster, more frequent, operates later.
fastest time I've done Arklow to Busarus is 63 minutes. The train couldn't come near to this time. This was pre Glen of the Downs Dual Carriageway scheme too.

a bus eireann time from Balbriggan to Busarus 50 mins
irish rail quote 48 mins for one of their services from Balbriggan to Busarus.

The bus eireann services may not be accessible, don't have a toilet etc etc.
Bus service can set down at considerably more locations as demand permits.

Once the Arklow Beehive road scheme is built, bus will be able to beat the train consistently from Gorey to Dublin.

Unless IE can improve the offering to potential customers, this service will decline.

[KSW]

Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue

Fastest time I've done Arklow to Busarus is 63 minutes. The train couldn't come near to this time.
Unless IE can improve the offering to potential customers, this service will decline.

Regards what you said above - The train could very easily match this. This year alone Iarnrod Eireann have bet its own record stopping at station to station along the route. (Example) On one occasion the 18:37 ex Connolly, From Rathdrum station to Arklow the train took just 13mins.. And another time from Wicklow-Rathdrum just 9mins.. And another time Arklow-Gorey just 9mins.. Now if Iarnrod Eireann had these times from station to station it would certainly change literally the face of all Gorey/Rosslare Services.. Now I know you have to account for delays and time for people to get on/off and wheelchairs etc but it can be done as I've withnessed this lots of times. It depends on the driver whether he wants to go fast or slow, But it should'nt be on the driver who decides this... If all Dart services was to stop operating 15mins before Rosslare and waited after the Rosslare to depart, The Dart could wait at Connolly for 5mins and after the Rosslare has left and passed a block the Dart could then continue on to Bray or Greystones. I need to ask this - Why has all Rosslare services now stop at Tara Street, Pearse and Dun Laoghaire? How did it manage 4years ago and before that? When the new 22000 trains eventually come into action please dont say that it will continue to stop at these stations causing people travelling to Dun Laoghaire crowding the train espically at peak....
Anyway I'm not going on and on about this when there is already potential on the line..... Just messing yesterday I have worked out that the line could have 3 departures from Rosslare and 3 from Wexford and 1 from Gorey.. Also 3 from Connolly to Wexford and 3 to Rosslare.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by KeithStephen

people travelling to Dun Laoghaire crowding the train espically at peak....

People travelling to Dun Laoghaire are also entitled to travel. The alternative to them standing on a long distance service is providing them with more short distance services, reducing the number of slots available for long distance services.

Passengers from Bray-Rosslare may want to go to Dun Laoghaire, Pearse, etc. as these places have direct connections that Connolly doesn't.

It is only when short distance services prevent long distance passengers from board will this be changed.

Its also quite possible that removing these stops won't improve the journey time as there is a DART in front anyway.

[KSW]

Surly it would'nt cost €500million to tilt the track on some sections. Anyone experenice about 5-7mins south after Kilcoole the train takes a voilent sway as the track turns as the train travels at 70m.p.h , Also after Rathdrum those are some serious corners tilting might help the train to gluide around the corners....

[KSW]

I've noticed this for a month or so now but every time I travel to Dublin on any of the Gorey/Rosslare trains just after the yogurt factory on route to Gorey Southwards the trains go really slow past this section of track, It never before in the past went this slow, It always literally flew past this section.Whats up? This track is on a curve and the N11 is just across to the left going southwards to Rosslare. I've noticed this curve is not as it used to be its some-what weaker.
Anybody else noticed this!!

[Edward Ryan]

Yes I have noticed it . Must be there 5 or 6 weeks now. You can feel a jolt just before the road bridge on the curve which always seems worse on a 29 type train. Must be doing repair work there Id Say?