Does Waterford-Limerick have passenger potential?

[Thomas Morelli]

Originally Posted by comcor

I would say, let the Cork-Dublin platforms be built.

Then persuade Irish Rail that Waterford will definitely stay open and needs investment.

Then it may be possible to consider a short platform, linked to the Cork-bound platform, alongside the line to Waterford.

Others on here will know better the operational problems with stopping a train in a location where it is about to cross another track, but I would suspect that it would have to be stopped at the platform before any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork services have pulled in. The Limerick bay doesn't suffer from this and it could be possible to put in a terminating platforn off the Waterford line, but that would preclude through running without manoeuvres.

Is there a way to use trains from Waterford as Limerick Junction to Limerick shuttle services without limiting journey options that are there now?

A train running from Limerick to Waterford connecting with a train going from Cork to Dublin, for example, would not let passengers coming from the Cork direction to travel to Limerick.

Would it work in this case to have another shuttle train that would go back to Limerick from Limerick Junction when the Waterford-bound one would arrive to keep the possibility of (in this case) a Cork to Limerick service?

[comcor]

There's no particular reason why you couldn't split a train and it's common enough practice in other European countries. Platform 3 should be long enough to support it as well.

So, what you could have is a Limerick-Limerick Junction train that goes to Limerick Junction, with half of it going back to Limerick and the other half going to Waterford.

The Limerick train would need to leave first (giving chance for any Cork-Dublin or Dublin-Cork trains to leave the main line), with the Waterford train leaving later.

There are a few disadvantages
- I believe the 22000s are the only suitable rolling stock, which would mean 6 cars leaving Limerick, with 3 going back and 3 onto Waterford. This seems over-capacity
- It complicates driver rostering
- It can be confusing for passengers, especially in a country where we are not used to this set up
- There would necessarily be a 10 minute or so delay between the train from Limerick and the one to Waterford departing. This isn't much better than the 09:05 service achieves today.
- Any late running of a service on the mainline would necessarily delay the train to Waterford. It's not just a matter of missed connections, but also because it couldn't cross the tracks

None of those would preclude a service. They just need to be taken into account when considering its viability.

[Thomas Morelli]

Does adding a second through platform to Limerick Junction to allow a Cork to Dublin train and a Dublin to Cork train to stop there at the same time bring benefits to the Dublin - Cork service?

[comcor]

The biggest benefit is that it allows for much simpler operation of the shuttle to Limerick. It's worth remembering that a fairly significant proportion of users of the service are actually traveling between Limerick and Dublin. The demand between Limerick and Dublin is much greater than the demand between Limerick and Cork, so by not having the trains arrive at the same time, it can either lead to fairly empty workings or paying drivers to sit around waiting to operate a service.

There are some direct benefits for Cork-Dublin, most notably that a service that is delayed will not cause problems for platform access for a non-delayed train adding in the other direction. In theory, you could probably do things like driver swaps to help with efficiency of rostering, but that has the drawback of needing one train to arrive before the other can leave.

[Thomas Morelli]

Would it be feasible to have two platforms on the Waterford - Limerick line at Limerick Junction, and have Waterford - Limerick trains pass Limerick - Waterford trains there?

[comcor]

There's not enough space for that arrangement in the current complex, but the land alongside it is largely agricultural and shouldn't cost too much to acquire.

You would have to double-track the line through Limerick Junction at least and then construct two platforms and link them to the main platforms.

There is again this problem of stopping trains before crossing the Dublin-Cork mainline, so you would probably have to stop Limerick trains north of the junction and Waterford trains south of it. The Limerick platform would be west of the line and Waterford platform east of it.

Then multiple bridges are required for platform access.

It gets complicated.

[Thomas Morelli]

Do the Dublin - Cork trains have to stop before crossing the Waterford to Limerick line?

[ACustomer]

For heaven's sake, this discussion is a bit ridiculous, considering that Irish Rail cannot even manage to solve some very simple constraints on congested lines (like upgrading the through road platform at Enfield to take passengers).

A platform on the down main line at Lim Jcn may make life easier as far as conflicts between up and down Dublin-Cork trains are concerned, but connections from down trains will no longer be cross platform but would involve climbing/descending stairs/lifts to an overbridge/underpass across three lines. What does that do for connecting times, which at present can be very slick.

This thread is meant to be about the Limerick-Junction to Waterford line, and what is really required is some investment to lower the journey time from 1h40m to about 1h20m. This is mainly a question of better signalling and visibility at crossings.

[Thomas Morelli]

How much will improving visibility at crossings and better signalling cost?

[Jamie2k9]

For heaven's sake, this discussion is a bit ridiculous, considering that Irish Rail cannot even manage to solve some very simple constraints on congested lines (like upgrading the through road platform at Enfield to take passengers).

They had planning for it (could be expired) but it would be for the NTA to approve.

[Thomas Morelli]

Is it a common problem that Dublin - Cork trains are delayed by trains going in the opposite direction due to there being only one through platform at Limerick Junction?

[Sealink]

Think I could try it?

[Traincustomer]

Originally Posted by Thomas Morelli

Do the Dublin - Cork trains have to stop before crossing the Waterford to Limerick line?

Others on here have more expertise in signalling knowledge and the like but if I'm not mistaken the "flat crossing" is signal protected on both sides. The norm is for mainline trains to cross it at low speed.

I would thoroughly recommend taking a trip (if you haven't already) to see the line and set up.

[Traincustomer]

Originally Posted by Sealink

Think I could try it?

You could upgrade?! "Ah go on" as Mrs. Doyle would say!!!

On a serious note it appears that a "block" in the booking engine is omitted i.e. if Carrick to Limerick Jct involves more than one train it is not via the direct South Tipp line so a higher fare needs to reply.

[Thomas Morelli]

A couple of days ago I took the 16:25 train from Waterford to Cahir.

The train left Waterford with 40 people on board, and it had 26 on board when I got off.
Would anyone know if this is the amount of people who would typically be using the service?

[Jamie2k9]

A couple of days ago I took the 16:25 train from Waterford to Cahir.

The train left Waterford with 40 people on board, and it had 26 on board when I got off.
Would anyone know if this is the amount of people who would typically be using the service?

40 is a good number, by any chance were some of those part of a Rail Tours Ireland group? (likely they were)

[Thomas Morelli]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

40 is a good number, by any chance were some of those part of a Rail Tours Ireland group? (likely they were)

Yes, there were people on the train in a Rail Tours Ireland group, but I would say there weren't any more than ten people part of the group.

How many people would usually be on the train?

[Thomas Morelli]

Does anyone know how much time stopping at a station typically adds to journey times (for the 2800 class for example)

[ACustomer]

Stopping at intermediate stations on LJn-Waterford should add 2 or 3 minutes per stop (asuming it spends a minute or less actually stopped). No real difference if it's ICRs (as opposed to 2800s). Trains would in many cases have to slow for staff exchange and the low line speed means less time loss.

Also in response to an earlier post, mainline nonstop trains can pass Limerick Junction at 60mph, ususally only 2 or 3 trains on weekdays and maybe more on Sundays.

[Thomas Morelli]

Would Cahir and Tipperary have a lot of people commuting into Limerick for work?