Anti Social Scumbags

[James Howard]

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see.

Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.

[Mark Gleeson]

Early morning is not a time you would expect trouble

The advent of front/rear CCTV on many trains means the stone throwers can now be traced in many incidents. Legally there is no issue with a transport police as it would be just a gardai division like the traffic corp.

The windows are designed to take a pretty significant impact without collapsing, that is no doubt is why the pair on the Longford train didn't get far with the glass hammer.

If you know how to use the glass hammer you can take a window out in a single strike, if you don't you will probably break the hammer before you break the window. Just look at the graphic next to the hammer for the secret

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by James Howard

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see.

Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.

Sorry, I didn't mean that Transport Police could stop the stone throwing (badly phrased), but they would stop anti social behavour on trains. ie the 16.40 fron Heuston to Waterford from time to time. As regards legislation - I'm not so sure, we have Airport Police, Harbour Police, so why not Transport Police

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by James Howard

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable.

Not much, but stone throwing is largely localised, so they can target those areas.

As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Potentially, it could exist as a Garda unit under its own command structure so that its personnel don't get dragged off to do whatever the local superintendent wants.

Originally Posted by grainne whale

As regards legislation - I'm not so sure, we have Airport Police, Harbour Police, so why not Transport Police

The problem there is that they are only allowed operate on port/airport property. Transport police would need to be able to operate anywhere on the railway and on roads.

[grainne whale]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Not much, but stone throwing is largely localised, so they can target those areas.
Potentially, it could exist as a Garda unit under its own command structure so that its personnel don't get dragged off to do whatever the local superintendent wants.
The problem there is that they are only allowed operate on port/airport property. Transport police would need to be able to operate anywhere on the railway and on roads.

Just a question, how are the private security Brinks allowed to operate. ?

[haddockman]

Originally Posted by grainne whale

Just a question, how are the private security Brinks allowed to operate. ?

They have the same powers as a private citizen. They are licensed as security guards by the private security authority. They cannot do a lot.

[Mark Gleeson]

They have struck again reports of passengers assaulted on the 17:55 Heuston Newbridge service

[James Howard]

We can expect a decisive response from Irish Rail in the near future. They will be printing up large stickers with a phone number to ring which will be manned from 09:30 to 16:30 Monday to Thursday.

Joking aside, in all seriousness, a swift response in terms of security on board a large percentage if not all trains is required for the next few days. Obviously these lads decided that since the last lot got bail anything goes so I won't be surprised to see a spate of incidents. This incident appears to be a lot more serious as it seems a passenger was actually assaulted.

According to Irish Rail's twitter feed, the driver (and I presume by extension nobody at Irish Rail) was aware until they were contacted by the Gardai. Unbelievable. Also, I would hardly call 18:30 or so out of hours for a rail company.

Iarnród Éireann ‏@IrishRail 19m
@experteasy @rosslaregooner Our twitter feed is not always manned out if hours. The driver was not aware until the Gardai made contact

[Mark Gleeson]

There is the somewhat unknown emergency number 01 8555454 staffed 24-7-365

Its basically connects you to the same person the driver gets if he pushes the emergency button

For the circumstances tonight its use is completely justified.

Protocol is
Dial if there is a risk to life
When answered state 'This is an emergency call'
Clearly and slowly give the details, if on a train the trains origin/departure time otherwise if at station/level crossing/bridge give the location and the reference number as shown
Give your name and number
Follow instructions given

In a railway emergency dial this number FIRST before 112 (I know its illogical but thats the protocol) the biggest risk in a railway incident is other trains still moving

[Jamie2k9]

James
why would they know when nobody including the person involved decided to alert the driver. There was enough passengers to do it and even if the two people were going through the train somebody could of used the toilet to alert him.

Safe to assume they have free travel, no way could they afford Irish Rails prices to travel around so much.

As for transport police airport and ports fund them fully from commercial revenue received. Needless to say transport operators here couldn't afford to.

According to the journal 3 have being arrested.

[James Howard]

The point is that nobody alerted the driver because to do so is to draw attention to yourself and hence become a target. Also, why bother if all the driver can do is ring the guards. You may as well cut out the middleman.

The problem is that for several years now there have been some trains with no Irish Rail staff presence aside from the driver. On these trains, routine anti-social behaviour such as smoking, playing music, etc goes entirely unpunished and so escalates. It is this development of a threatening atmosphere that any staff presence on the train prevents. This is what has escalated into these two incidents.

Obviously a transport police is the ideal solution, but there is little point in having it as a Garda division as they staff will just get reassigned to more important and glamourous duties. But having any kind of presence is better than none - where this be private security or even just not having the expectation of NEVER seeing a ticket collector an a given service.

[Jamie2k9]

Don't buy not alerting him at all. Yes possibly draw attention however there is over 200 passengers on a train. Somebody could of easily pulled the hammer beside themselves and the driver would of had to come out and the CCTV would clearly show the people in the coach.

He could easily of slowed down the train so guards would meet its arrival and there is at least 200 passengers onboard which could easy detain the two suspects.

As for only driver onboard only a few weeks ago I was on a train which was supposed to have security but didn't and had a ticket checker and the driver was easily made away of problems onboard and nothing was done whatsoever.

This doing nothing approach is the problem.

[ocian]

I remember travelling to Galway and Westport a number of years ago and there was two of the rail security guys that you find on the Luas or in Connolly and Heuston stations on board each train. As expected, having these 2 big tough lads in stab-proof vests etc discourages any antisocial behaviour.

Anyone have any idea why this arrangement of having them on the trains stopped, and if it would be possible for Irish Rail to start putting them on trains again?

[Mark Gleeson]

There seems to be a passenger education issue here which contributed to the issue this evening

1. Pulling any of the emergency handles or breaking the seal on any emergency equipment does not sound an alarm in the passenger cabin or in any way indicate they have been activated

2. With the exception of the emergency door release none of the emergency handles actually cause the train to stop. The driver has to press a button within 5 seconds to override the emergency stop

3. When any handle or seal is broken the driver display in the cab immediately shows the location and the nearest CCTV

4. There are 11 ways to trigger an emergency in each ICR coach, 4 inside the coach (glass hammer + fire extinguisher) , 3 at each end (doors *2 plus driver communication button), 1 in the toilet

[James Howard]

From the article on The Journal, it sounds very much as if the trouble was actually as a result of somebody intervening where something was being stolen - or at least where they thought something was being stolen. They appear to have received a broken nose for their trouble.

There is obviously a very serious passenger education (or trust) issue - several people took the trouble to ring the guards but nobody felt it worthwhile telling Irish Rail. Whether this was because they didn't know how or because they didn't feel that it was worth bothering is hard to know. But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves.

[Concerned Worker]

Do you have any evidence to support your outrageous comment ?

"But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves"

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

From the article on The Journal, it sounds very much as if the trouble was actually as a result of somebody intervening where something was being stolen - or at least where they thought something was being stolen. They appear to have received a broken nose for their trouble.

There is obviously a very serious passenger education (or trust) issue - several people took the trouble to ring the guards but nobody felt it worthwhile telling Irish Rail. Whether this was because they didn't know how or because they didn't feel that it was worth bothering is hard to know. But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves.

To be honest it does really show how much people totally choose not to make themselves aware of what to do in an emergency, despite notices being plastered all over the train.

[Mark Gleeson]

You can equally blame Irish Rail for hiding its emergency number.

When stuck in the no win scenario like last night I highly recommend the fire extinguisher, nice and heavy to stop any advancing thug and best of all you can spray them down CO2 is very cold, or foam.

Removing the extinguisher triggers an alarm in the cab also...

[James Howard]

Originally Posted by Concerned Worker

Do you have any evidence to support your outrageous comment ?

"But the fact is that people obviously don't feel that Irish Rail will look after their personal safety when an incident occurs on a train and that they are better off ringing the guards themselves"

Several people (not just one) rang the guards, nobody contacted anybody at Irish Rail. That's sufficient evidence for a concerned passenger.

I have never seen any emergency number posted on a train. Now, I will admit to usually being in a bit of a fog in the morning, but to my knowledge there is no Irish Rail emergency number visible from a passenger seat.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by James Howard

Several people (not just one) rang the guards, nobody contacted anybody at Irish Rail. That's sufficient evidence for a concerned passenger.

I have never seen any emergency number posted on a train. Now, I will admit to usually being in a bit of a fog in the morning, but to my knowledge there is no Irish Rail emergency number visible from a passenger seat.

But again - they didn't contact the driver because they didn't know how to, due to not being aware of what to do.

People have no interest in knowing what to do in an emergency until they are in one themselves.