Irish Rail approaches the last stop?

[gm101]

i

[Mark Gleeson]

The elimination of ticket checkers and their replacement, where possible, by train hostesses.

Train host has been a very successful initiative on the Cork service, has delivered a significant improvement in passenger experience, it needs a bit more work but it is drastically better than the old guard and checker routine. The train host/manager idea is used Europe wide, and they manage to handle the customer service and ticket checking without trouble, better service for lower cost.

The total discontinuation of Fastrack from 31/3/09.

If there is any aspect of the business beyond those for which a statutory obligation exists (passenger services) making a loss its got to be restructured or closed down it is totally unacceptable that part of the business is propped up by passengers fares. Loss of fastrack will have zero impact on passenger experience and will reduce presure to increase fares. Every 2.5 million loss means 1% more on the fares

Speeding up the closure of remaining signal cabins and manned level crossings.

You have totally lost any credibilty by trying to make this out to be a bad thing, not doing this is putting passengers and staff lives at risk

The automation aspect has saved millions per annum while improving the passenger service and I know for a fact accidents have been prevented thanks to it. At least 6 signal cabins are going by years end. It means we can have a 24 hour railway and the end to the delays when the crossing keeper decides to sleep it in, Kerry line and Waterford passengers are well familar with this problem.

The possible replacement of bookings offices at stations with 'alternative arrangements'

Online ticket sales for all routes is coming, Sligo and Rosslare are coming. A massive expansion in the number of locations where internet tickets can be collected is coming soon as well. There will be a Social Welfare smartcard in place of the current pass, smartcards in Dublin and possibly elsewhere. The need for a traditional booking office is reducing fast. The word possible of course doesn't mean its happening

I've seen elsewhere very effective staffing approaches where its only when a passenger seeks a complicated ticket that they enter the booking office, other times they are about the station in a customer service role which also doubles up as a security and revenue protection role. Passenger reaction in UK positive in both surveys and increased travel to this setup.

How a station such as Thurles justifies 4 staff on duty (and still closes for lunch) is seriously questionable, two is more than enough. For regional routes the onboard conductor approach is perfectly acceptable, it works fine elsewhere, Northern Ireland Railways has few staffed stations yet its passengers are signifcantly happier with the customer service.

How exactly it is going to be implemented is a concern which we are already watching, but massive savings can be made and an improved customer service can be provided as well as part of the exercise, plus it give Irish Rail the power sack those lazy and unless ticket clerks, this forum is far too familiar with the Maynooth situation.


I really don't see a problem, the vast majority of this is very much in favour of the passenger, not doing this would actually make things worse. Its following well established practices used successfully elsewhere, much of this should have been done 5 if not 10 years ago.

In fact the recession could be a blessing in disguse to finally force Irish Rail into a cost effective passenger focused operator, if they don't it will be curtains. There are massive savings to be made within Irish Rail, through a combination of better staffing, better timetabling, sweating the assets and other small steps many tens of millions can be knocked off the losses.

Those who attended the AGM in December already know the package of measures we will be proposing to improve the service while implementing a combination of savings and also measures to increase revenue. A formal publication of this is coming soon

Despite all the doom and gloom, the 6 months of random cancellations and 5 days or so no trains in Cork/Kerry intercity passenger numbers are actually up 2008 vs 2007 and there are some timetabling improvements coming this Summer where fuel prices will be half what CIE is currently paying combined with a fleet of trains using significantly less than locomotive hauled services. The real problem is the pension fund has gone south, not the passenger side of the business

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by gm101

4) The possible replacement of bookings offices at stations with 'alternative arrangements' - the mind truly boggles!

I dont get this. Luas works fine, if there is a TVM in every station whats the problem? I never use the booking office in Thurles, even if its manned, i just use the TVM.

It appears there was the hatchings of a plan by IE to get staff out of sedentary positions and into more pro active roles - for a start they need lots of new drivers and hosts if they ever hope to start the two hourly service (which may be a forlorn hope now) nationwide. Thet can only get them internally, hence the need to shift people about.

Of course they should have set this in motion yonks ago, now it may be too late.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

I dont get this. Luas works fine, if there is a TVM in every station whats the problem? I never use the booking office in Thurles, even if its manned, i just use the TVM.

The problem tom is unlike the luas some suburban rail stations are served by infrequent trains and have an inadequate information services. For many a time the only place to get information on the train situation at clonsilla was by asking the ticket office or the manned signal point.

Once both of these go we have to rely on announcements being made, ringing the timetable hotline or by checking the website, can we rely on those? honestly?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

The problem tom is unlike the luas some suburban rail stations are served by infrequent trains and have an inadequate information services. For many a time the only place to get information on the train situation at clonsilla was by asking the ticket office or the manned signal point.

Once both of these go we have to rely on announcements being made, ringing the timetable hotline or by checking the website, can we rely on those? honestly?

but they are easily fixed.

[gm101]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Train host has been a very successful initiative on the Cork service, has delivered a significant improvement in passenger experience, it needs a bit more work but it is drastically better than the old guard and checker routine. The train host/manager idea is used Europe wide, and they manage to handle the customer service and ticket checking without trouble, better service for lower cost.



If there is any aspect of the business beyond those for which a statutory obligation exists (passenger services) making a loss its got to be restructured or closed down it is totally unacceptable that part of the business is propped up by passengers fares. Loss of fastrack will have zero impact on passenger experience and will reduce presure to increase fares. Every 2.5 million loss means 1% more on the fares


You have totally lost any credibilty by trying to make this out to be a bad thing, not doing this is putting passengers and staff lives at risk

The automation aspect has saved millions per annum while improving the passenger service and I know for a fact accidents have been prevented thanks to it. At least 6 signal cabins are going by years end. It means we can have a 24 hour railway and the end to the delays when the crossing keeper decides to sleep it in, Kerry line and Waterford passengers are well familar with this problem.



Online ticket sales for all routes is coming, Sligo and Rosslare are coming. A massive expansion in the number of locations where internet tickets can be collected is coming soon as well. There will be a Social Welfare smartcard in place of the current pass, smartcards in Dublin and possibly elsewhere. The need for a traditional booking office is reducing fast. The word possible of course doesn't mean its happening

I've seen elsewhere very effective staffing approaches where its only when a passenger seeks a complicated ticket that they enter the booking office, other times they are about the station in a customer service role which also doubles up as a security and revenue protection role. Passenger reaction in UK positive in both surveys and increased travel to this setup.

How a station such as Thurles justifies 4 staff on duty (and still closes for lunch) is seriously questionable, two is more than enough. For regional routes the onboard conductor approach is perfectly acceptable, it works fine elsewhere, Northern Ireland Railways has few staffed stations yet its passengers are signifcantly happier with the customer service.

How exactly it is going to be implemented is a concern which we are already watching, but massive savings can be made and an improved customer service can be provided as well as part of the exercise, plus it give Irish Rail the power sack those lazy and unless ticket clerks, this forum is far too familiar with the Maynooth situation.


I really don't see a problem, the vast majority of this is very much in favour of the passenger, not doing this would actually make things worse. Its following well established practices used successfully elsewhere, much of this should have been done 5 if not 10 years ago.

In fact the recession could be a blessing in disguse to finally force Irish Rail into a cost effective passenger focused operator, if they don't it will be curtains. There are massive savings to be made within Irish Rail, through a combination of better staffing, better timetabling, sweating the assets and other small steps many tens of millions can be knocked off the losses.

Those who attended the AGM in December already know the package of measures we will be proposing to improve the service while implementing a combination of savings and also measures to increase revenue. A formal publication of this is coming soon

Despite all the doom and gloom, the 6 months of random cancellations and 5 days or so no trains in Cork/Kerry intercity passenger numbers are actually up 2008 vs 2007 and there are some timetabling improvements coming this Summer where fuel prices will be half what CIE is currently paying combined with a fleet of trains using significantly less than locomotive hauled services. The real problem is the pension fund has gone south, not the passenger side of the business

i am all for the control of the entire network to be controlled from a central point
what i want to ask is about the part of the above post you cut namely the running of an unmanned rail system had how safe it is and how likely it is to happen

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

but they are easily fixed.

True, but it should be done before these measures come into place. That signal cabin in clonsilla being the best place to get information says alot about the maynooth line

[PLUMB LOCO]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

I dont get this. Luas works fine, if there is a TVM in every station whats the problem? I never use the booking office in Thurles, even if its manned, i just use the TVM.

It appears there was the hatchings of a plan by IE to get staff out of sedentary positions and into more pro active roles - for a start they need lots of new drivers and hosts if they ever hope to start the two hourly service (which may be a forlorn hope now) nationwide. Thet can only get them internally, hence the need to shift people about.

Of course they should have set this in motion yonks ago, now it may be too late.

Well bully for you - aren't you great you like using automatic ticket machines - my experience is that most passengers prefer human interaction as all booking office staff are not like the oddball at Maynooth. There is the security aspect of unmanned stations, maintenance of toilets, gardens etc. Instead of doing away with staff IE should have been looking at ways of maximising their contribution to revenue - dealing with Fastrack parcels would have been one way! Of course getting rid of staff is the easy option for management with no ability!

[Mark Hennessy]

A big problem with the TVMs is that they dont offer all ticket types, a big pain.

Do they accept debit / credit cards also?

[al2637]

Imagine a fully automated system with NO Irish Rail staff.... how can anyone say that wouldn't be an improvement!!!

Serioulsly tho, in this day and age there is no need for booking office staff, it should all be automated. Or they could do as they do in the Netherlands, +0.50c if you buy your ticket from the office rather than the machine. People soon get the idea.

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy

A big problem with the TVMs is that they dont offer all ticket types, a big pain.

Do they accept debit / credit cards also?

They do take plastic something the bulk of booking offices can't. Also the machine is far more polite !

Of course Northern Ireland Railways manages without a single TVM to my knowledge, most stations are unstaffed yet are in better condition than most staffed Irish Rail stations

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

Well bully for you - aren't you great you like using automatic ticket machines - my experience is that most passengers prefer human interaction as all booking office staff are not like the oddball at Maynooth. There is the security aspect of unmanned stations, maintenance of toilets, gardens etc. Instead of doing away with staff IE should have been looking at ways of maximising their contribution to revenue - dealing with Fastrack parcels would have been one way! Of course getting rid of staff is the easy option for management with no ability!

Dont be so precious. Much as i like the idea of IE staff doing gardening work (I love my garden) i dont see that as their primary role. I never once said that people should be sacked or got rid of, i said re-deployed. I love having the banter with the lads in the station as much as anyone, but if their job is outdated and they can do something else - something else which needs to be done in order to safeguard the future of the company - then I cant see what your problem is.

[Mark Hennessy]

If IE are going to a fully unstaffed operation then can they do it a very professional and comprehensive manner?

1. All ticket types to be provided from TVMs
2. Advertising campaign for 2-3 months in advance of this. Station staff to help and educate customers in using the TVMs
3. Visible ticket agent on all inter city trains to sell ticket. Zero tolerance at termini. Customers to be able to print out web bookings with barcode or have ticket on mobile phone to cut down even further on bureacracy.
4. Commuter Termini to have TVMs on platform to allow tickets to be purchased getting off train if boarded in Broombridge etc. Zero tolerance policy otherwise
5. All tvms to have a scheduled number for uptime. No tvm to be out of service for more than a day. Policy enforced by body such as DTA

Please add to this list so that IE management might get "inspiration".

[sean]

Originally Posted by gm101

Internal correspondence that I have seen today would suggest major retrograde retrenchment is coming down the line for the whole IE network.

Apparently among proposals being considered by CIE/IE management are the following:

1) The elimination of ticket checkers and their replacement, where possible, by train hostesses.
2) The total discontinuation of Fastrack from 31/3/09.
3) Speeding up the closure of remaining signal cabins and manned level crossings.
4) The possible replacement of bookings offices at stations with 'alternative arrangements' - the mind truly boggles!

<snip>

mark i would be intrested in your views on the above statement especially the
last paragraph about the unmanned rail network thanks

Sign me up for most of that except:
Fasttrack - why give it the axe? The idea is sound - use cupboard space to ferry parcels along the network, methinks they should have tried to make it more efficient, or raise prices if that couldn't be done.
Secondly, closing booking offices and replacing them with "alternative arrangments" I'm sorry this doesn't inspire confidence. Simply because the online booking system is not always a better option than the booking office, but also because TVMs don't issue all types of ticket and from what I've read here there's no onus on the passenger to use them.

The rest of it - the streamlining of staff on trains and the elimination of manual crossings and cabin-controlled signalling, all sound like good ideas.

[Mark Gleeson]

Our only concern is the ticketing and booking office situation. You should come face to face with a person at least once during a journey. Thats critical for revenue collection

We have plenty of examples of how it is done elsewhere, we know its possible to deliver a better service in fact at lower cost than current.

Problem is Irish Rail are doing the lazy thing of slash and burn, instead of properly looking at the service how can it be made better the plan must be a combination of improving the service to gain additional revenue and doing things in a more intelligent manner to save money

With a combination of extra services, new routes and so on I don't see a need for a mass cull of staffing numbers, sure there will be a need to trim a number of jobs indeed a opportunity to remove those who fail to show a customer focus.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by sean

Secondly, closing booking offices and replacing them with "alternative arrangments" I'm sorry this doesn't inspire confidence. Simply because the online booking system is not always a better option than the booking office, but also because TVMs don't issue all types of ticket and from what I've read here there's no onus on the passenger to use them.

My mother was at a funeral in London last week going from Gatwick to Croydon by train. As she entered the station concourse in Gatwick, there was a queue of about 20 people for tickets. Seeing 4 older people together, a member of staff took them aside to the customer service desk and issued their tickets there. Even gave then a 2-for-1 deal. Thats what I'd like to see happen in medium to large stations (in terms of pasenger numbers) - Heuston or Galway or the bigger stations can keep a single ticket desk (or a few for major events), but Dublin suburban stations could mostly get away with 3 TVMs and a "platform / concourse supervisor". What you don't want is the ability of staff to hide from customers and trespassers. Shifting people away from single / return tickets onto season tickets is also important from cash handling, socio-economic and environmental grounds.

Now, I can't imagine such a customer service situation at Woodlawn, which sometimes has nobody boarding or alighting. However, it could have one* TVM and if its a complicated ticket or the person isn't comfortable using the technology, then a ticket checker can issue a ticket as people board.


* Strictly speaking you'd love to have two of more machines at every station, in case someone is slow using it or in the case of a fault. For Woodlawn, you just might get away with none.

[Thomas Ralph]

I think the Permit to Travel scheme used in smaller stations in the UK could bear a lot of fruit. The way it works is if you can't buy a ticket from the TVM (or there is none, or it's not working), you put some coins into the machine (up to the value of your ticket or whatever you have) and it spits out a voucher, not unlike a pay and display machine, with the station name and amount paid printed on it, valid for 2 hours. This voucher is then exchanged or used in part payment for a ticket with an onboard ticket-checker or at the destination station. Or in the worst case, the railway has got some money that it wouldn't otherwise get. They're also used in stations with limited booking office hours.

[chris]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Of course Northern Ireland Railways manages without a single TVM to my knowledge, most stations are unstaffed yet are in better condition than most staffed Irish Rail stations

There's £200k pencilled in for TVMs 2010-11

http://www.translink.co.uk/resources2007/pdfs/Capital%20Expenditure%20Prog%20200809%20to%2020101 1.pdf
Page 5

[Mark Gleeson]

It doesn't say TVM, it says ticket machines could be a renewal of the booking office equipment, Ulsterbus has a similar entry. You won't get many with £200k

Point is NIR have gone with a conductor model which works exceptionally well, the stations despite being unstaffed are clean, have excellent signage and clear timetabling information.

Its an absolute shock to go from IE to NIR the attitude, the presentation the whole show is so much better from the passenger point of view. NIR run on a tiny subsidy mind you but they have made an effort to sort out the simple issues, things that matter. Numerous award have been won. Its a clear example of best practice that can be drawn upon

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by chris

There's £200k pencilled in for TVMs 2010-11

http://www.translink.co.uk/resources2007/pdfs/Capital%20Expenditure%20Prog%20200809%20to%2020101 1.pdf
Page 5

Based on the cost of ATMs, TVMs probably costs tens of thousands of euros each, with fitting costs extra.