Too many staff?

Eddie · 06-01-2018, 09:03

Travelled last week one day on the 16.25 Waterford to Linerick Junction train.

About 40-50 odd people I'd say used the service - more than I expected.

One thing that struck me was the number of Irish Rail staff I saw eg manning level crossings adjacent to the stations. How many are there for the 4 trains that go each day? I would have thought key to this line's survival would be complete automation with the only staff required being a driver and a guard to collect fares.

Jamie2k9 · 06-01-2018, 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie

Travelled last week one day on the 16.25 Waterford to Linerick Junction train.

About 40-50 odd people I'd say used the service - more than I expected.

One thing that struck me was the number of Irish Rail staff I saw eg manning level crossings adjacent to the stations. How many are there for the 4 trains that go each day? I would have thought key to this line's survival would be complete automation with the only staff required being a driver and a guard to collect fares.

Yes this and Limerick-BallyB have a lot of staff required to operate crossings, signalling on these lines. Automation of crossings is circa €1m per crossing and suspect the old signalling system under local control would create problems automating crossings.

In recent years Limerick J-Tipp Town has come under central control but that was probably the easiest section to address at low cost.

The reason there is no services during the day on both regional lines is they operate a split shift, operating during the day would result in two separate shifts for staff.

Eddie · 07-01-2018, 01:48

Interesting ... so this is why you see massive subsidies per passenger journeys on some of these lines. You bring in low revenues, in part because you only operate twice a day and you operate twice a day because you don't make the capital investment to automate the signalling and crossings.

Presumably Wexford to Waterford also relied on a similar workforce, and the high per passenger subsidy was a key reason for its demise?

Are there other higher frequency lines that rely on significant staff numbers to operate the service?

I've had a look a 2011 census and Clonmel which is on this line would appear to be one of the most populated towns in Ireland (18,000) that has an existing station but with the least frequent train service. On the other hand, for its 8,000 inhabitants, Thurles must have one of the best. My guess would be that a frequent fast link from Clonmel to Limerick Junction to connect with Cork and Dublin trains would significantly increase rail useage from the town.

Jamie2k9 · 07-01-2018, 15:43

Most of lines have only the odd attended crossing (roughly Waterford 2, Cork 4, Limerick 3) while I think Sligo, WRC, Tralee are now fully automated. With funding issues conversion to automatic has almost stopped, many 1-2 a year now where it would of been much higher towards end of 2000's. One person per shift been able to control each route's crossings is a big saving.

Yes Waterford/Rosslare had the same problem and it's difficult to balance service improvements and costs.

Most people go to Limerick J, Kilenny or Waterford to take the train from South Tipp, it would probably make no difference if they routed towards Limerick J or Waterford in terms of journey times.

comcor · 08-01-2018, 09:48

I can't find a link to this now, but I have a memory that when Waterford-Rosslare closed it was reported that it was losing €4m a year of which €2.5m was the cost of manual level crossings. It seems a bit high considering there were only 12 crossings of public roads on the route.

Although it's more expensive than automating a crossing, surely the ideal is to build a bridge as it doesn't require signalling adjustments. Although it's not always going to be practical (e.g. the old Bridgetown crossing on Rosslare-Waterford was right in the middle of the village) and is made harder by the fact that crossing-keeper's cottages were often built next to the line.

Mark Gleeson · 08-01-2018, 12:02

Level crossings are being replaced but its working through based on priority and also future plans. So if there are plans to build a bridge or close a road the manual gates remain (see Maynooth line)

So Dublin Rosslare/Galway/Westport/Waterford should be 100% automatic. Dublin Cork has a small number left which are being slowly eliminated.

The capital cost is about 1 million each and an ongoing maintenance cost, its generally rolled into the capital cost of signalling upgrades

06-01-2018, 09:03	#1
Eddie Really Regular Poster Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 258	Too many staff? Travelled last week one day on the 16.25 Waterford to Linerick Junction train. About 40-50 odd people I'd say used the service - more than I expected. One thing that struck me was the number of Irish Rail staff I saw eg manning level crossings adjacent to the stations. How many are there for the 4 trains that go each day? I would have thought key to this line's survival would be complete automation with the only staff required being a driver and a guard to collect fares.

08-01-2018, 12:02	#6
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Level crossings are being replaced but its working through based on priority and also future plans. So if there are plans to build a bridge or close a road the manual gates remain (see Maynooth line) So Dublin Rosslare/Galway/Westport/Waterford should be 100% automatic. Dublin Cork has a small number left which are being slowly eliminated. The capital cost is about 1 million each and an ongoing maintenance cost, its generally rolled into the capital cost of signalling upgrades __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 08-01-2018 at 12:19.

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07-01-2018, 01:48	#3
Eddie Really Regular Poster Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 258	Interesting ... so this is why you see massive subsidies per passenger journeys on some of these lines. You bring in low revenues, in part because you only operate twice a day and you operate twice a day because you don't make the capital investment to automate the signalling and crossings. Presumably Wexford to Waterford also relied on a similar workforce, and the high per passenger subsidy was a key reason for its demise? Are there other higher frequency lines that rely on significant staff numbers to operate the service? I've had a look a 2011 census and Clonmel which is on this line would appear to be one of the most populated towns in Ireland (18,000) that has an existing station but with the least frequent train service. On the other hand, for its 8,000 inhabitants, Thurles must have one of the best. My guess would be that a frequent fast link from Clonmel to Limerick Junction to connect with Cork and Dublin trains would significantly increase rail useage from the town.

07-01-2018, 15:43	#4
Jamie2k9 Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,146	Most of lines have only the odd attended crossing (roughly Waterford 2, Cork 4, Limerick 3) while I think Sligo, WRC, Tralee are now fully automated. With funding issues conversion to automatic has almost stopped, many 1-2 a year now where it would of been much higher towards end of 2000's. One person per shift been able to control each route's crossings is a big saving. Yes Waterford/Rosslare had the same problem and it's difficult to balance service improvements and costs. Most people go to Limerick J, Kilenny or Waterford to take the train from South Tipp, it would probably make no difference if they routed towards Limerick J or Waterford in terms of journey times.

08-01-2018, 09:48	#5
comcor Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford Posts: 855	I can't find a link to this now, but I have a memory that when Waterford-Rosslare closed it was reported that it was losing €4m a year of which €2.5m was the cost of manual level crossings. It seems a bit high considering there were only 12 crossings of public roads on the route. Although it's more expensive than automating a crossing, surely the ideal is to build a bridge as it doesn't require signalling adjustments. Although it's not always going to be practical (e.g. the old Bridgetown crossing on Rosslare-Waterford was right in the middle of the village) and is made harder by the fact that crossing-keeper's cottages were often built next to the line.