Stolen Taxsaver ticket - Reissue fee

[iemillst]

Hi

My partner had her annual taxsaver Dart ticket stolen when our hotel room was broken into just over a week ago. The next day she got in touch with CIE about a replacement and was told to bring a letter from her employer and €72 replacement charge!

It seems that CIE charge €12 per month remaining to replace lost and stolen tickets. I could possibly understand the chare for lost tickets, but for stolen tickets it is completely unfair - CIE profiting from victims of crime.

Do we have any hope of getting this money refunded? If so who should we contact?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Mark Gleeson]

Little chance of the money being refunded I'm afraid.

The charge is part of the conditions for the ticket, as Irish Rail have no negligence in the matter, they in fact are not required to issue a replacement ticket. Damaged tickets are replaced for free. The charge is a rough estimate of the revenue lost from annual tickets being used having being lost/stolen. They are protecting themselves from the resultant loss, which legally they can. Lost/stolen are equivalent you no longer have possession of the ticket, someone else could.

Your only chance is to show that the ticket is highly unlikely to resurface, if it was stolen in a foreign country and you can produce a police report you could argue this, the conditions require a police report if the ticket is stolen.

If the ticket is recovered and you can produce it to Irish Rail you will be refunded the amount less the admin fee. Irish Rail do circulate the name and number of every stolen/lost annual ticket to staff within CIE, but rarely if ever are the tickets recovered. There is a black market in stolen annual tickets they are being used

It is not possible to lock out the stolen ticket such that it would be rejected by the turnstiles. When smart cards take over this will be possible and the replacement charge will be a simple admin fee regardless of the validity remaining.

The advice was to put the ticket on the household insurance, but given the max charge is €100 the excess will always be more so its not really useful

[iemillst]

I feared as much.

We will have to claim against the hotel for the charge. The thing that annoys me is the fact that if she was careless and lost the ticket and then found it again at a later date she would get 90% of the reissue free refunded. But as it was stolen there is precious little chance of it being returned.

Also, surely if they lose on average €12 per month thru use of lost/stolen tickets then it is for them to stop this. The tickets have people faces on them, why not be proactive and randomly ask people to produce their ticket and to compare the picture? Perhaps a nice big fine (€250+) for using somebody elses ticket would cover the loss of the re-issue fee. Seems to be a better idea than just charge the victim of a theft for lost revenue that may or may not occur.

I remember losing my annual season ticket on South West Trains. I just had to fill in a form, show my drivers licence and that was it. No charge, just a warning that they wouldn’t replace it again. I’m sure if someone tried to use my lost ticket they’d be asked to explain themselves to the BT Police.

I guess we just have to look forward to the smart card. Although I wouldn’t be hopeful of this charge going when it does arrive, particularly if it provides a good revenue stream.

[Mark Gleeson]

With the smart card they can either block the card or flag it and physically track the user and simply pick up the person promptly and arrest them. Obviously getting the people using the tickets is as important to the ticket itself. There is no justification to impose a charge in this case, and if they try there will be serious trouble, the technology by design prevents stolen/lost tickets being used.

Current smartcard conditions are

If you registered your Luas SmartCard while buying it or afterwards by Web, Phone or Post the card and its Credit will be registered in your name. This means if your card is lost or stolen you can call us and we will block it from use and issue you with a new card. Your replacement SmartCard will cost 3. All refund are subject to Conditions of Use.
If you did not register your Luas SmartCard it will not be registered in your name. Losing it will be the same as losing cash. If you have a record of the Card Number on the back of the SmartCard you can register it and we will block it from use and issue you with a new card. Your replacement SmartCard will cost 3. All refund are subject to Conditions of Use.

The current Dublin Bus smart card cannot be blocked since it still has the magentic strip, but the mag stripe for Bus only will be phased out by year end

If zero charge was applied tickets lost/stolen would undoubtly increase and the lost revenue will be transfered onto passengers who don't even use annual tickets. Tickets would be 'accidentally' lost on purpose.

We are all for effective ticket inspections but we then get heaps of complaints when a strict inspection is carried out, these inspections are specifically to catch people at the start of the month who are trying to pass off last months ticket, fake tickets, fake passes and annual tickets being used by a third party. It is infeasible for a inspector to be able to check a ticket against the missing list with a queue of 300 odd people behind him. People have been caught we just don't know how many

The unanswered question is if Irish Rail recover the ticket, will they refund you the charge? If the ticket was stolen abroad and you have a police report you have a good case to argue that the ticket will not result in any loss of revenue. Obviously though you have a claim on the hotel first as they failed to adequately secure the premises

[iemillst]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The unanswered question is if Irish Rail recover the ticket, will they refund you the charge? If the ticket was stolen abroad and you have a police report you have a good case to argue that the ticket will not result in any loss of revenue. Obviously though you have a claim on the hotel first as they failed to adequately secure the premises

Unfortunately it was stolen in the Republic (Kildare) but by someone from the North - they have CCTV of him and his car. The Detective on the case said they would get his name from PSNI and put on the system incase he comes to their attention but they cant go to the North and get him for just an Ipod and a purse. So I may be able to argue that the ticket is outside the state, but I doubt it would wash. Chances are the ticket was binned as its no use outside of Dublin. Also, if someone does try to use it and they dont look like my partner they may be caught as the ticket stopped working in the automatic turnstile about a month after she got it. But as you say, would Irish Rail then refund us?

I'll stick €72 onto the other ~€480 euro we are claiming from the hotel, I think its our best (probably only!) chance.

Thanks for your help.

[Mark Gleeson]

Well if Irish Rail find it themselves they will probably claim they are due the money on the basis of the 'effort' they put in to get it back.

If they do find it they should return the charge to you, but its unlikely. If the ticket is faulty chances are it will get a fair bit of attention and will get caught, so it could be very beneficial for Irish Rail to have a copy of the police report so the cops have the best chance to catch them

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

With the smart card they can either block the card or flag it and physically track the user and simply pick up the person promptly and arrest them. Obviously getting the people using the tickets is as important to the ticket itself. There is no justification to impose a charge in this case, and if they try there will be serious trouble, the technology by design prevents stolen/lost tickets being used.

Do current magstripe tickets (especially monthly & annual) not have a unique/sequence number along with the ticket code? It seems odd for them to leave it out given the benefits of customer tracking and hot listing.

I have a strong hunch that the fee is more to do with an "administrative" fee than any revenue recuperation and when cards are rolled out, the fee will remain or even rise because the cost of the chips.

[Mark Gleeson]

Ticket has an id number printed on it, doubt it is encoded in the ticket, even if it the turnstiles aren't linked together by a network for the trick to work

Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann apply a per month remaining excess before issuing the replacement, it is linked to the remaining validity.

Cost to reissue the ticket is virtually nil, given they issue replacements for free if defective. Luas smartcard is 3 euro for a replacement following loss with all existing credit transferred. In London its free but you must get a new card first and then get it transferred

When smart cards finally arrive, there is be no justification for any charges beyond a simple cost to issue a new smart card which is virtually zero, Dublin bus are issuing monthly tickets with chips right now

[Eddie]

I appear to have lost my annual taxsaver ticket.

I notice that despite the arrival of Smartcards and therefore presumably the technology to stop cards, there appears to be a €10 per month outstanding reissue fee.

Why has this not been curtailed as per Mark's comment immediately above?

What incentive have Irish Rail to contact me if it is handed in if there is a nice reissue fee to be had if they don't?

Who can I contact to see if has been used?

[Kilocharlie]

From taxsaver.ie FAQ

What happens if my ticket is lost or stolen?
Monthly tickets are not replaced. Annual tickets are replaced at a cost of €10.00 for each month left to be used. Bus Éireann and Irish Rail Point-to-Point tickets cost from €10.00 to €20.00 a month to replace. Terms and conditions apply to replacing annual tickets.

[Mark Gleeson]

My understanding is it should be a fixed 10-20 euro fee if the ticket was a smartcard ticket. I'll make inquires

[Eddie]

Thanks Mark.

I called Taxsaver today and they said it was €10 plus a letter from your employer, so a better result than the FAQs suggest.

[Mark Gleeson]

Thats exactly what I was expecting, seems sensible and reasonable

The letter from employer is required for all replacements where the ticket was issued under the tax saver scheme