Northern line (Dublin) 2007 timetable issues

[Derek Wheeler]

Below is a complaint received by P11 in relation to the Drogheda commuter line. I think it poses some interesting points.

While there is a welcome improvement with one extra train in the morning and now all trains stop at all stations in the morning rush hour I am extremely mad about the unfair and unjustifiable bias towards Skerries, Balbriggan and Laytown for trains from town. Three extra trains between 17.13 and 20.25 from town serve these stations and not Rush & Lusk (or Donabate for that matter). During this period, Rush & Lusk gets five arrivals from town while Skerries gets eight. We see these trains as we wait at the stations and while there is no doubt that they are busy trains they have ample standing room while we are left to take trains that are so packed that would not pass for conditions of transporting livestock under EU law. Is this fair? What is this bias based on?

Some facts that you may find interesting from the CSO web sit and the results of the 2006 census.

• Skerries has a population of 8173.
• Laytown/Julianstown has a population of 8201.
• Rush (8293) and lusk (7017) has a population of 15,308.
• With a population 100% lager then the other two stations during peak hours the Rush and Lusk station receives only 60% of the trains that stop at the other stations.

How can this crazy situation continue? Demographics have greatly changed in the North County over the past ten years and while skerries was historically bigger this is no longer the case.

Many people feel the same as I do and I hope you maybe able to help the people of Rush and Lusk get the service they deserve not the current disservice we receive.

[packetswitch]

What's the problem? The three trains in question all go non-stop to Skerries after leaving Connolly. Surely it's OK for some trains to go non-stop and some to call at each station? Limited-stop services are important in driving demand to more distant locations, as it gives (or should give!) a more favourable journey time...especially on slow-to-stop-and-start-again DMUs

I don't know the recent population increases around Rush and Lusk too well but it seems that just adding the population of two towns and assuming that should mean better service is a little imprecise when it comes to setting timetables. Passenger demand, not to mention the catchment area of the station (i.e. 5000 people in a town that extends a square mile from a station is different to 5000 people spread over ten square miles!) would be an issue here. The fact that the station is called "Rush and Lusk" and the census areas of the towns of Rush and Lusk add to a certain number doesn't, in and of itself, mean that there is enough demand to justify the change...IÉ says that Rush town is 2 miles from the station, so it's optimistic naming anyway...

On the other hand, the 1713 does stop at all stations on Saturdays so maybe that one could try an all-stop service on weekdays and see what impact it has? Surely worth a try?

[Colm Moore]

Of note, "nobody" lives at Rush-Lusk Station whereas Skerries Station, actually is in Skerries.

[Rashers]

That service must be one of the most crowded services on the network. Unless the 1650 Connolly-Belfast, which now calls at Dundalk, relieves some of the pressure off the 1713 service, I think stopping the 1713 at any more stations would just make things worse. It might mean that Dundalk/Drogheda passengers would simply not get on the service at Connolly.
I would like to see some northbound services terminate at the likes of Skerries (which has a working siding), and head back into town (possibly empty, or as an express) for the evening peak to relieve some of the pressure.
The 1707 ex Connolly terminates at Balbriggan @ 1745. This forms the 1807 Balbriggan to Pearse arriving it at 18.49. If they did something similar with an earlier service, say around 1650 ex Connolly (I know it would clash with the Belfast Enterprise), and cut the turnaround time (from the exisiting 22 mins to 5 mins), this could lead to the service arriving back into Pearse @ 18.15, which catches the tail end of the evening peak.
It's the usual supply situation - A Pearse to Drogheda service is 50% empty by Balbriggan (note: this may still mean every seat is taken). If you terminated this service there, ran it back into town, he might help relieve the overcrowding on the peak services.
However, I think on this one, IE are in a bit of a no win situation. Until someone can press IE to extend the DART to Balbriggan, ahead of the interconnector being built, this problem will only worsen.

[Mark Gleeson]

The 17:13 is already so overcrowed that IE added a few years back the 17:07 which does call at Rush & Lusk as well as Donabate. So not really a issue if a train is already full to the point its horribly overcrowded it would result in a even worse experience for the 1250 on that train, given a separate train is provided no justification can be made since it would be contrary to the passenger interest

Trains are already overcrowded and short running of train doesn't help since Ballbriggan is the turnback you can't get the train back in time to make another useful trip

The only othernorthern line outbound trains which don't call at Rush and Lusk can't call since there is a enterprise talling them or you could stop everywhere and park in Skerries for 10 minutes to allow the enterprise to pass, thats 2 out 25+ trains making 3 in total

[stanley]

Could you explain to me what differance you all hope the DART will give.on the northern line.
At present the line is similar to Connolly-Pearse it is fast runnig out of space and also look athe kildare route they now need a seconftrack.

Second and I am open to correction.But the last time i looked the power for a dart it came from the roof throught the OHLE with the rail car it came from an engine under the carriage.No major jump in space on board.Yes i hear all the debate about saving the earth with using clean energy but i think you will all be open to a let down

[Colm Donoghue]

There is a gap of an hour between 18:15 and 19:15 for a train to Rush and Lusk.
a train departs Connolly at 18:40 to Skerries as first stop.

An hours gap is a bit much really. Especially as there's a shorter gap to the next train. The 18:40 from Connolly could call at Donabate and R+L and still be ahead of the enterprise.

A 4 stop to Skerries takes 9 mintes more than the direct skerries service, two stops would add ~5 minutes and the train would still arrive in Drogheda 4 minutes ahead of the enterprise.

Victor, there's 3 or 4 houses that are accessed through the car park in R+L station, so people do live there, but I take your point it's outside of both towns.

Rush and Lusk are designated secondary growth towns under the national spatial strategy.
Lusk has one of the largest growth rates in the country.

Another reason to stop only at the further stations is because they're out of the dublin fare and IE can charge way more for passengers per km than the nearer stations of R+L and Donabate.

[Mark Gleeson]

City to Skerries, Ballbriggan and Rush and Lusk are the same fare (annual tickets are the same for all stations within Dublin anyway) if you where into maximising return you would loose Ballbriggan in favour of Rush and Lusk since you save a fraction on diesel since you carry less weight for more miles

18:40 arrives Drogheda 19:21, taking 41 minutes enterprise arrives 19:31, 10 minutes behind

The 18:23 Connolly Dundalk calls all Donabate Drogheda arriving 19:17, 54 minutes, so you can say each stop costs you 4 minutes roughly

Now the 18:40 runs on to Dundalk so it needs a 7 minute gap so the enterprise behind gets green signals doing the math you can't even make one stop extra

Point to note is Skerries has the highest % of rail commuters by population of any town in Ireland, Malahide is second

[tigger1962]

Hi,
the 16.50 belfast service won't make much a difference as Irish rail are capping the number of people allowed on to the service. They claim its already oversubscribed and are telling people to get the 17.15 service!! i already know people who used get that service who get the 18.40 service or the 19.00 belfast service because the earlier services are so crowded! i personally have given up hope of ever getting home from work before 7pm

[Mark Gleeson]

http://forum.platform11.org/showthread.php?t=1774

Since the 16:50 never called at Dundalk its not forcing anyone elsewhere, the very lucky few get a chance to try the 16:50 this year, it won't make a difference say 120 get the 16:50 who got the 17:13 thats only 15 fewer in each coach of the 17:13 and within about a week that space will be gone just like every time before

IE are already running for cover after the screw up with the boarding cards and it exposed a few interesting dodgy practices IE have been using on the Northern line

If you board at Pearse (bear in mind Pearse Dundalk is same fare as Connolly Dundalk) so DART it over you have a more than a fair chance of getting a seat if you first work out where the doors will be.

Litterally everything bar the kitchen sink is out on the commuter services at peak, there is an extra 1240 capacity an hour to beyond Malahide in the pipeline but government pulled the money in 1999 for the project to make it possible to run more trains into the city, the money appeared again in 2005 should be done by 2008.

Given every train is full to crush load no amount of fiddling with the timetable is going to produce any improvement

There was a dream of 10 coach double decker to Drogheda, it sounds like a dream but it was very very real until the funding was refused in T21

Root cause of overcrowding is Government refusal to spend the cash
Irish Rail are responsible for not getting that extra 5% out of the system to make it bareable

[hhf8]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

http://forum.platform11.org/showthread.php?t=1774


There was a dream of 10 coach double decker to Drogheda, it sounds like a dream but it was very very real until the funding was refused in T21

I thought a two car dmu could be attached to an 8 car 2900,if needed be?. Double decker trains would be a great addition,

[Mark Gleeson]

Talking Paris style electric double decker

In theory 10 car rail car sets are possible but platforms are a problem, Connolly (p4) Howth Junction and Drogheda would be Ok

Of course find the extra coaches....

[tigger1962]

hi,
Well i'm on the 16:50 belfast train. I was told at entry that anyone who had an annual pass would be let through. There was a queue forming with non-annual ticket holders but as of 16:44 the train is relatively empty... oh i was told that one of the mysterious passes is in the post to me!! i actually haven't seen one yet! So yep there may be a few less people on the 1713 train... but since that train is usually less full of dundalk people and mostly skerries/Balbriggan/Gormanston/laytown and drogheda with the final 200 or so getting off in dundalk I doubt it will make too much difference either.

Considering some of the laws for CIE date before there was even a republic... eg 1850??? maybe some government official might try and get them brought into eu standards.

[Colm Donoghue]

You can get the 18:40 Connolly Skerries
arr Skerries 19:01
dep Skerries 19:16
arr R+L 19:23
arr Donabate 19:27


The 19:15 from Pearse arrives in Donabate at 19:46 and
R+L at 19:51

The journey planner won't show this connection if you search online

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by tigger1962

Considering some of the laws for CIE date before there was even a republic... eg 1850??? maybe some government official might try and get them brought into eu standards.

The trusty 1889 regulation of railways act remains in force, it keeps you safe and is the most consise document to cover avoiding all kinds of accidents, all the other victorian stuff was repealed last year, back then you could travel lying down on the continous step boards outside the train

Note no legal standard on overcrowding exists anywhere in Europe

Now there could be a good business in selling boarding cards......

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by colmd

You can get the 18:40 Connolly Skerries
arr Skerries 19:01
dep Skerries 19:16
arr R+L 19:23
arr Donabate 19:27


The 19:15 from Pearse arrives in Donabate at 19:46 and
R+L at 19:51

The journey planner won't show this connection if you search online

Firstly nice catch

Secondly this is only going to be valid if you have
1) A Dublin suburban annual ticket
2) A short hop ticket (Donabate and Rush and Lusk are inner zone)

Now you could try it on a normal single or return but I'm fairly sure you could be in trouble, now if the journey planner showed it it would be different game

[Mark Gleeson]

For the record the 17:13 left Pearse 17:13:35

There where 5 or 6 people standing in the front coach, coach 2 and 3 where the most heavily loaded with 30-40 ish standing

Advice is to spread out on the platform

[tigger1962]

hi there,
I used find the last carriages on that train were the Dundalk people, The middle carriages were mostly Skerries/balbriggan people.. If you know were to stand on these carriages you'd get a seat in skerries. I found that if you go to the last 3 carriages you could stand as far as dundalk depending on the day. Usually you would get a seat by laytown in most of the other carriages. The earlier train to Balbriggan which now stops everywhere can be ok if you get there earliy enough. Today will be the first time in 8 months that I will be home by 6.15! I am a bit amazed! I used to be home in balbriggan by 6 most days!


ps in the carriage I am sitting in there are at least 14 free seats!!!!

[hhf8]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Advice is to spread out on the platform

Have to agree,In tara northbound,ppl seem to wait in huge groups near the stairs,they never seem to move from there,Always room down the back to get on. Could IE maybe run messages over the intercom,telling ppl to spread out in rush hour? Bit like the behind the yellow line one

[Colm Donoghue]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Firstly nice catch

Secondly this is only going to be valid if you have
1) A Dublin suburban annual ticket
2) A short hop ticket (Donabate and Rush and Lusk are inner zone)

Now you could try it on a normal single or return but I'm fairly sure you could be in trouble, now if the journey planner showed it it would be different game

My ticket's good to Balbriggan. It's strange this journey doesn't show up when the
dep R+L 20:44
arr Drog 21:11
dep Drog 21:40
arr Conn 22:20
shows up for connections back the way.

I imagine there would be a pressing need to have a printout of the website to show the guy on the enterprise but the ticket office in R+L would probably be closed so "how could I know?" should work.