Lack of staff on intercity trains...

MrX · 02-08-2006, 00:35

I just had one of the most unpleasant Intercity journies of my entire life, not due to a bad train but due to out of control passengers.

7:30pm MK3 service Cork-Dublin (1/08/2006)

The train started off in Cork not overloaded and everything was quite pleasant.. As the journey went on this group of what I could only describe as drunken yobs got on. They drank to the point that they weren't even able to stand up and then lit up cigerettes in the middle of the coach.

Someone challenged them and was just threatened violently.

I ended up leaving the coach and standing between carriages for the rest of the journey.

It's not the first time that I've seen passengers way way too drunk on board IE trains. If they're going to continue to serve alcohol the very least they could do is supervise the passengers.

It's irresponsible on IE's behalf and it's also hypocritical considering how strictly they can inforce no drinking on commuter/dart trains!

Perhaps drinking should be confined to the dining car?

It seems insane that they will allow someone to drink a six pack at their own seat.

Donal Quinn · 02-08-2006, 09:49

i've posted on this before

totally agree - i've had experience where there was IE staff whom i complained to and he just walked passed them

also i'm always careful to check that there isn't a dublin football game on the route - near got my head kicked in by hill 16's finest a few years back

it is pathetic and i accept that when violence is threatened IE staff shouldn't have to risk life and limb but they should be coordinating with the garda.

imagine - trian leaves dublin with jimmy's stag party in full voice. passengers complain directly and are threatened, go to IE staff who are also threatened. garda in portarlington are contacted - they're prepared for this sort of thing. IE staff use PA system to tell jimmy that our heroes are on the way. train stops and ringleaders are removed and the rest told that there's more garda waiting in athlone... ahhhh

in the meantime i would say to everyone that if you see someone challenging these types then back them up straight away - and encourage others (peacefully of course). it makes a huge difference if there's a group.

MrX · 02-08-2006, 10:37

I was on a TGV a few years ago and a bunch of "Lads" from England got into a similar state drunk, disorderly, falling around the place, smoking etc.

The ticket inspector said absolutely nothing and just walked through the coach. About 10 to 15 mins later we made an unscheduled stop. Armed Police entered the coach from both sides. The guys were cuffed, read their rights and dragged off onto the platform where there was an awaiting police van.

The behaviour wasn't tollerated any more than it would have been on a flight.

Mark Gleeson · 02-08-2006, 10:53

First problem is the drink is brought onboard by the troublemakers

There is always a member of staff onboard a intercity train, head for buffet coach the guard should be in the coach behind the first class coach on each train, otherwise the buffet staff can PA him to the location

If any member of staff refuses to take action, ask for there name and home depot and that you will file a formal complaint that he failed in his/her duty to ensure the safety of the passengers on the train. Otherwise at the next station get out and refuse to allow the door to be closed.

If things get really rough pull the communication cord, a emergency brake application should be enough to destabilise anyone standing with a few beers. Not a good idea in a confined space if you think about it. Note the communication cord on the new MK4/CDE trains does NOT apply the brakes it just triggers an alarm for the train manager who decides if a stop is required

Unless you have a little army unit with you there is little point challenging any trouble makers with drink and possibly drugs involved it will get messy

Oisin88 · 04-08-2006, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donalq

also i'm always careful to check that there isn't a dublin football game on the route - near got my head kicked in by hill 16's finest a few years back

Hey, yobs from any county would be just as bad. Lucky there is no train to Armagh/Tyrone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donalq

imagine - trian leaves dublin with jimmy's stag party in full voice.

More of it. If he was from Dublin he'd be Jimmo.

I've been on plenty of trains where there has been drinking and no real trouble. Howevr, even sober people have a habit of smoking out the window at the end, or popping out at a stop to smoke. Part of the problem is that the air supply for breathing in the carriages seems to be above the door. Everyone in the carriage gets a passive smoke and when smoker gets back to his seat the smell is mostly gone.

Not going to pull the alarm for that but it would be nice if there was some way of dealing with it.

Thomas J Stamp · 04-08-2006, 22:31

Any regular visitor to this site will know that both Derek and myself are long-time Dublin supporters and i still stand on the hill.

The best and most fondly rememberd incident of Dublin supporters aggrivating a train was when the energency cord was pulled on the way back form Wexford some years back. There was a special with no drink on, and the regular service with a bar. Guess which one had the energincy cord pulled?

I posted on the old board about my experiance with the 1999 leauge final in Cork, special train on the way down was strictly enforeced drink free AND WAS ADVERTISED AS SUCH. There were a lot of families on that train. All the regular services to cork ran with bars open, everyone eho wanted to get drunk duely did so. On the way back, everyone, including the drunks, those with no tickets and those carrying big flagons of cider, were allowed onto the so-called drink free special train. It was chaos, and so was Connolly, where the temporary ramps to the DART platforms nearly collapsed.

There are no drinks allowed on trains to Kilkenny. Wonder why. A small bottle of Bud is over €4 on a train and they know they will drink the bar dry when there is a football match.

Oh, just to show it's not just the Dubs. John 3:16 had his famous board ripped off of him and thrown out of a train window. It was Tipp -v- Clare.

IE sell drink on intercity trains. They allow people to bring on as much drink as they like, after getting jarred in the bars in Connolly and Heuston. If the owner of a pub allowed thay he would be summonsed to the local district court. IE only sell it to print money off it. Maybe with the new DMU's it'll change, doubt it, though.

Oisin88 · 08-08-2006, 17:31

Quote:

Oh, just to show it's not just the Dubs. John 3:16 had his famous board ripped off of him and thrown out of a train window. It was Tipp -v- Clare

You wouldn't need to be sober or a yob to do this.

Oisin88 · 08-08-2006, 17:34

The ideal thing would be for different match day specials to have different "rules"
i.e a family train, a non-drinking train and a drinkers train. Clear information and enforcement and everybodies happy.

Apparently my sister was saying that the LUAS was mobbed with Cork people on Saturday and Sunday who had parked in the park and ride at the red cow. If they could have parked in their local station and taken a match special, we would have been spared from having to see them on the LUAS!

Mark Gleeson · 08-08-2006, 18:25

There was 4 specials from Cork and one from Tralee over the weekend, all drink free no reports of trouble

I remember an evening coming back to Dublin from a Munster Final in Cork and the bar ran dry by Charleville on the way back we stopped in Thurles for 'supplies' from a train going the other way

Many of the special trains don't even have a buffet car so drink could not be served anyway, why should drink be served anyway its going to lead to all kinds of problems and them toilets suffer. There is no automatic obligation on Irish Rail to supply a bar service its not worth the hassle

And hassle is why people get in touch with us
Scenario A No Drink, thats a pain in the arse why
This was due to security and safety considerations following some unfortunate events in the past

Scenario B Drink, place was wrecked full of drunks not a safe place for my kids etc etc
Thats why there is no drink

Derek Wheeler · 08-08-2006, 19:41

As a drinker, smoker and Dublin supporter, Im authorised to comment.

1. Ive drank on trains, got on trains "jarred", and all went trouble free. I honestly admit to getting well oiled on board many trains. Never have I or companions inconvenienced other passengers. Basically, some people can handle their drink, others can't. You'll find that a lot of people, drunk and troublesome on a train, tend to be very similar even when they're sober. For example. Ive been on a couple of ITG tours. People were drinking pints in the on board bar at 8am in the morning and continued for most of the day. Ive never seen trouble. Aidan can verify this some more.

2. Since the all out smoking ban, I havent smoked on a train. But I have jumped off at stations for a quick cigarette. The most recent and high profile example of this was the MK4 launch. I was joined by many people including IE management at both Thurles and Mallow. When it effects other passengers or the operation of the train, I would willingly stop doing it.

3. As for Dublin fans. I was on that wexford train many years ago. It was the same lads that climbed onto the stand roof at the game. (remember that one Thomas?) The problems with some Dublin supporters can be documented as far back as the 70s. In saying that, Ive been on the specials to thurles for the two great duels with Kerry in 2001. Drunk, noisey, yes. Trouble that threatened the safety of the train? No. I was on a scheduled service to and from Carlow for a game against Wexford in 2002. No trouble. The specials went off without incident aswell. (but some lads did light a fire on the grass bank posing as a terrace in Dr. Cullen Park.)The record isn't great, but this kind of thing is also evident from other counties too.

Across all types of services, the solution to drunk and/or disorderly behaviour is "transport police". The Gardai are too under resourced as it is, so expecting them to deal with train issues at their local station will never prove to be an adequate solution. Both IE and the Government have been very poor in relation to the issue. Security guards on the DART are a joke and provide no deterent to troublemakers and CCTV can only go so far.

This issue is just another example of a country that has undergone huge change both economically and socially. Unfortunetly your Government/politicians have either failed or are too slow to legislate, in order to cope with these changes.

02-08-2006, 00:35	#1
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	Lack of staff on intercity trains... I just had one of the most unpleasant Intercity journies of my entire life, not due to a bad train but due to out of control passengers. 7:30pm MK3 service Cork-Dublin (1/08/2006) The train started off in Cork not overloaded and everything was quite pleasant.. As the journey went on this group of what I could only describe as drunken yobs got on. They drank to the point that they weren't even able to stand up and then lit up cigerettes in the middle of the coach. Someone challenged them and was just threatened violently. I ended up leaving the coach and standing between carriages for the rest of the journey. It's not the first time that I've seen passengers way way too drunk on board IE trains. If they're going to continue to serve alcohol the very least they could do is supervise the passengers. It's irresponsible on IE's behalf and it's also hypocritical considering how strictly they can inforce no drinking on commuter/dart trains! Perhaps drinking should be confined to the dining car? It seems insane that they will allow someone to drink a six pack at their own seat.

02-08-2006, 10:53	#4
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	First problem is the drink is brought onboard by the troublemakers There is always a member of staff onboard a intercity train, head for buffet coach the guard should be in the coach behind the first class coach on each train, otherwise the buffet staff can PA him to the location If any member of staff refuses to take action, ask for there name and home depot and that you will file a formal complaint that he failed in his/her duty to ensure the safety of the passengers on the train. Otherwise at the next station get out and refuse to allow the door to be closed. If things get really rough pull the communication cord, a emergency brake application should be enough to destabilise anyone standing with a few beers. Not a good idea in a confined space if you think about it. Note the communication cord on the new MK4/CDE trains does NOT apply the brakes it just triggers an alarm for the train manager who decides if a stop is required Unless you have a little army unit with you there is little point challenging any trouble makers with drink and possibly drugs involved it will get messy Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 02-08-2006 at 10:55.

04-08-2006, 22:31	#6
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	Any regular visitor to this site will know that both Derek and myself are long-time Dublin supporters and i still stand on the hill. The best and most fondly rememberd incident of Dublin supporters aggrivating a train was when the energency cord was pulled on the way back form Wexford some years back. There was a special with no drink on, and the regular service with a bar. Guess which one had the energincy cord pulled? I posted on the old board about my experiance with the 1999 leauge final in Cork, special train on the way down was strictly enforeced drink free AND WAS ADVERTISED AS SUCH. There were a lot of families on that train. All the regular services to cork ran with bars open, everyone eho wanted to get drunk duely did so. On the way back, everyone, including the drunks, those with no tickets and those carrying big flagons of cider, were allowed onto the so-called drink free special train. It was chaos, and so was Connolly, where the temporary ramps to the DART platforms nearly collapsed. There are no drinks allowed on trains to Kilkenny. Wonder why. A small bottle of Bud is over €4 on a train and they know they will drink the bar dry when there is a football match. Oh, just to show it's not just the Dubs. John 3:16 had his famous board ripped off of him and thrown out of a train window. It was Tipp -v- Clare. IE sell drink on intercity trains. They allow people to bring on as much drink as they like, after getting jarred in the bars in Connolly and Heuston. If the owner of a pub allowed thay he would be summonsed to the local district court. IE only sell it to print money off it. Maybe with the new DMU's it'll change, doubt it, though. __________________ We are the passengers

08-08-2006, 17:34	#8
Oisin88 Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dublin Posts: 608	More trains The ideal thing would be for different match day specials to have different "rules" i.e a family train, a non-drinking train and a drinkers train. Clear information and enforcement and everybodies happy. Apparently my sister was saying that the LUAS was mobbed with Cork people on Saturday and Sunday who had parked in the park and ride at the red cow. If they could have parked in their local station and taken a match special, we would have been spared from having to see them on the LUAS!

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02-08-2006, 09:49	#2
Donal Quinn Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 267	i've posted on this before totally agree - i've had experience where there was IE staff whom i complained to and he just walked passed them also i'm always careful to check that there isn't a dublin football game on the route - near got my head kicked in by hill 16's finest a few years back it is pathetic and i accept that when violence is threatened IE staff shouldn't have to risk life and limb but they should be coordinating with the garda. imagine - trian leaves dublin with jimmy's stag party in full voice. passengers complain directly and are threatened, go to IE staff who are also threatened. garda in portarlington are contacted - they're prepared for this sort of thing. IE staff use PA system to tell jimmy that our heroes are on the way. train stops and ringleaders are removed and the rest told that there's more garda waiting in athlone... ahhhh in the meantime i would say to everyone that if you see someone challenging these types then back them up straight away - and encourage others (peacefully of course). it makes a huge difference if there's a group.

02-08-2006, 10:37	#3
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	I was on a TGV a few years ago and a bunch of "Lads" from England got into a similar state drunk, disorderly, falling around the place, smoking etc. The ticket inspector said absolutely nothing and just walked through the coach. About 10 to 15 mins later we made an unscheduled stop. Armed Police entered the coach from both sides. The guys were cuffed, read their rights and dragged off onto the platform where there was an awaiting police van. The behaviour wasn't tollerated any more than it would have been on a flight.

08-08-2006, 18:25	#9
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	There was 4 specials from Cork and one from Tralee over the weekend, all drink free no reports of trouble I remember an evening coming back to Dublin from a Munster Final in Cork and the bar ran dry by Charleville on the way back we stopped in Thurles for 'supplies' from a train going the other way Many of the special trains don't even have a buffet car so drink could not be served anyway, why should drink be served anyway its going to lead to all kinds of problems and them toilets suffer. There is no automatic obligation on Irish Rail to supply a bar service its not worth the hassle And hassle is why people get in touch with us Scenario A No Drink, thats a pain in the arse why This was due to security and safety considerations following some unfortunate events in the past Scenario B Drink, place was wrecked full of drunks not a safe place for my kids etc etc Thats why there is no drink

08-08-2006, 19:41	#10
Derek Wheeler Registered user Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kildare Posts: 1,555	As a drinker, smoker and Dublin supporter, Im authorised to comment. 1. Ive drank on trains, got on trains "jarred", and all went trouble free. I honestly admit to getting well oiled on board many trains. Never have I or companions inconvenienced other passengers. Basically, some people can handle their drink, others can't. You'll find that a lot of people, drunk and troublesome on a train, tend to be very similar even when they're sober. For example. Ive been on a couple of ITG tours. People were drinking pints in the on board bar at 8am in the morning and continued for most of the day. Ive never seen trouble. Aidan can verify this some more. 2. Since the all out smoking ban, I havent smoked on a train. But I have jumped off at stations for a quick cigarette. The most recent and high profile example of this was the MK4 launch. I was joined by many people including IE management at both Thurles and Mallow. When it effects other passengers or the operation of the train, I would willingly stop doing it. 3. As for Dublin fans. I was on that wexford train many years ago. It was the same lads that climbed onto the stand roof at the game. (remember that one Thomas?) The problems with some Dublin supporters can be documented as far back as the 70s. In saying that, Ive been on the specials to thurles for the two great duels with Kerry in 2001. Drunk, noisey, yes. Trouble that threatened the safety of the train? No. I was on a scheduled service to and from Carlow for a game against Wexford in 2002. No trouble. The specials went off without incident aswell. (but some lads did light a fire on the grass bank posing as a terrace in Dr. Cullen Park.)The record isn't great, but this kind of thing is also evident from other counties too. Across all types of services, the solution to drunk and/or disorderly behaviour is "transport police". The Gardai are too under resourced as it is, so expecting them to deal with train issues at their local station will never prove to be an adequate solution. Both IE and the Government have been very poor in relation to the issue. Security guards on the DART are a joke and provide no deterent to troublemakers and CCTV can only go so far. This issue is just another example of a country that has undergone huge change both economically and socially. Unfortunetly your Government/politicians have either failed or are too slow to legislate, in order to cope with these changes.