Rail Users Ireland Forum - View Single Post - 'Fast trains' a step closer on Dublin to Cork route

why_does_planning_suck · 08-06-2006, 23:46

I think it only appropriate that i more fully explain my position as i have been so imflammatory. There are a few responces but i will get to them.

I am not suggesting splitting irish rail. This is what i am suggesting. Workout a new timetable that maximises what services you want, and then auction of the time slots. If there are services that are loss makers and you think they are important then tie a profit making service to a loss making service. If there are loss making services left over then set a ticket price and reverse auction the time slots.

To those refering to ryanair and doubting that the irish market is big enough . Well in the case that you are right ,it doesn't change much. Allow the companies to expand into other industries (electricity generation would definitely make sense).

I do not believe that the public transport companies actually need a subsidy. I honestly think that 50k for a train driver is outrageous. The fact that ryanair flies some 30 odd million with less than 2500 staff while aerlingus flies around 10 with 3000 speaks volumes. What screams is that they are having to sort out pensions for 8000.

The argument that all the private tram companies eventually went belly up with the arrival of the car is prescient. But it is not the whole story. Dublin first had bad traffic problems in the city in the 70's it would have dawned much sooner on flexible bus operators that they needed to switch back to trams much sooner. Had they been given an approval to take over a street again we would have a trams system again , no doubt about it. We could get going on one tommorow , by farming out the different licenses. Buses could and would keep their prices in check.

I am godsmacked that 700 million was spent on the luas , that they charge 2.10 and are apparently breaking even. Dublin buses cost a million to buy , the road is basically free , and they are losing money charging 160 ???

Irish rail spends 234 million on payroll with a total budget of 400 million ??? it screams wanton waste . who is being paid this money? staff numbers are around 5500 , that is about 42 grand an employee - that's nuts! (i am not argueing whether it is fair or not , i know that you need to be a millionaire just to live in dublin).

Just because it is drummed into us that transport is uneconomic and it is about the greater benefit doesn't mean it is true. It is nonsense. There is no reason that 3 companies could be allowed to set their own prices.

The buses provide another concrete example: aircoach started a route to cork charging 7 bucks one way. With a week or so bus eireann started a special offer of 7 bucks too . What did it used to charge: 21!!

And back to planes , we are constantly told by politicians and the media the airtravel is a cyclical business with up and downs of profit. What we are not told is that this is just making excuses for bloated companies. South west airlines (the original ryanair) has made a loss one year only , despite trading through the seventies oil crisis and subsequent oil shocks. ryanair also makes a profit each year.

I would agree totally that some routes in ireland are totally uneconomic, but that does mean companies can't line up and compete to run the service.

The point that people will take the first train that comes is simply not true. Some will take the first irrespective of price, but some doesn't make you money. People are quite prepared to drive half way across the city to shop in aldi, some are quite prepared to drive to england to go to ikea. Many people will combine cost and the time into choosing which train to take.

Again i need to stress that i am not talking about a complete free for all. The department of transport should set the timetable. It should manage a system for providing access to transport for those who can't afford it (through coupons or something imaginative).It should decide what minimum services are needed. It should fine each services that runs late. And maintain a complaint service throught text messaging , (ie doing your job!!!)

I am talking about how you RUN things. You run things by organising as much competition as possible. The department of transport should be spending its time doing the job of the rpa. And deciding future projects.

I refuse point blank to accept that fiddling at the edges of irish rail is the best you can do. Personally i can understand why the government is loathe to give trains money - would you give irish rail your money ??

Planes are hugely expensive to maintain , and drink fuel. yet ryanair and citijet make it look easy. I am amazed each time that i fly to beauvais that even though there is a one hour bus journey , it is just about as fast(/slow) to get to the city as using CDG. You get your bags in a flash ,the bus is waiting and you are dropped at the metro- it is not sexy but it works.

Sell it , sell it ,why do we still own it ????? bring in new companies (but keep the tracks and the maintanance crew for said tracks!) and vote for brennan/PD because they are the only ones with the balls to do it!

08-06-2006, 23:46	#36
why_does_planning_suck Regular Poster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 69	I think it only appropriate that i more fully explain my position as i have been so imflammatory. There are a few responces but i will get to them. I am not suggesting splitting irish rail. This is what i am suggesting. Workout a new timetable that maximises what services you want, and then auction of the time slots. If there are services that are loss makers and you think they are important then tie a profit making service to a loss making service. If there are loss making services left over then set a ticket price and reverse auction the time slots. To those refering to ryanair and doubting that the irish market is big enough . Well in the case that you are right ,it doesn't change much. Allow the companies to expand into other industries (electricity generation would definitely make sense). I do not believe that the public transport companies actually need a subsidy. I honestly think that 50k for a train driver is outrageous. The fact that ryanair flies some 30 odd million with less than 2500 staff while aerlingus flies around 10 with 3000 speaks volumes. What screams is that they are having to sort out pensions for 8000. The argument that all the private tram companies eventually went belly up with the arrival of the car is prescient. But it is not the whole story. Dublin first had bad traffic problems in the city in the 70's it would have dawned much sooner on flexible bus operators that they needed to switch back to trams much sooner. Had they been given an approval to take over a street again we would have a trams system again , no doubt about it. We could get going on one tommorow , by farming out the different licenses. Buses could and would keep their prices in check. I am godsmacked that 700 million was spent on the luas , that they charge 2.10 and are apparently breaking even. Dublin buses cost a million to buy , the road is basically free , and they are losing money charging 160 ??? Irish rail spends 234 million on payroll with a total budget of 400 million ??? it screams wanton waste . who is being paid this money? staff numbers are around 5500 , that is about 42 grand an employee - that's nuts! (i am not argueing whether it is fair or not , i know that you need to be a millionaire just to live in dublin). Just because it is drummed into us that transport is uneconomic and it is about the greater benefit doesn't mean it is true. It is nonsense. There is no reason that 3 companies could be allowed to set their own prices. The buses provide another concrete example: aircoach started a route to cork charging 7 bucks one way. With a week or so bus eireann started a special offer of 7 bucks too . What did it used to charge: 21!! And back to planes , we are constantly told by politicians and the media the airtravel is a cyclical business with up and downs of profit. What we are not told is that this is just making excuses for bloated companies. South west airlines (the original ryanair) has made a loss one year only , despite trading through the seventies oil crisis and subsequent oil shocks. ryanair also makes a profit each year. I would agree totally that some routes in ireland are totally uneconomic, but that does mean companies can't line up and compete to run the service. The point that people will take the first train that comes is simply not true. Some will take the first irrespective of price, but some doesn't make you money. People are quite prepared to drive half way across the city to shop in aldi, some are quite prepared to drive to england to go to ikea. Many people will combine cost and the time into choosing which train to take. Again i need to stress that i am not talking about a complete free for all. The department of transport should set the timetable. It should manage a system for providing access to transport for those who can't afford it (through coupons or something imaginative).It should decide what minimum services are needed. It should fine each services that runs late. And maintain a complaint service throught text messaging , (ie doing your job!!!) I am talking about how you RUN things. You run things by organising as much competition as possible. The department of transport should be spending its time doing the job of the rpa. And deciding future projects. I refuse point blank to accept that fiddling at the edges of irish rail is the best you can do. Personally i can understand why the government is loathe to give trains money - would you give irish rail your money ?? Planes are hugely expensive to maintain , and drink fuel. yet ryanair and citijet make it look easy. I am amazed each time that i fly to beauvais that even though there is a one hour bus journey , it is just about as fast(/slow) to get to the city as using CDG. You get your bags in a flash ,the bus is waiting and you are dropped at the metro- it is not sexy but it works. Sell it , sell it ,why do we still own it ????? bring in new companies (but keep the tracks and the maintanance crew for said tracks!) and vote for brennan/PD because they are the only ones with the balls to do it!