[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

In a city such as paris, that has more than one ring road, an extensive underground metro system, excellent approach roads and a suburban and intercity rail system, any comparison with Dublin being a trendsetter is utterly laughable.

Dublin's Luas (and this is what I was talking about) has been cited as a trend setter by city councils in Liverpool, Edinburough and even Belfast.

Paris started their Metro following the end of the Franco-Prussian war. It was a prestiege project like the Eifel Tower to show off French engineering and science to the world. The Paris Metro was not built in desparation to solve a traffic and planning crisis like Dublin - they had time to do it the way they wanted. The road layout of Paris was designed to shoot cannons down at invading armines and not good urban planning or for future light rail. Paris was then the centre of a major world empire and loads of money to spend. Even so, the modern AutoRoute system in France really only got going in the 1980's.

Ireland was on the other hand, a provincial backwater of another Empire and Dublin had no more influence than Cardiff, Nottingham or Dundee. Dublin is years behind Paris for many reasons and not because they are genius and we Irish are always thickos. History, economics, population demographics and many other factors are the main reasons.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Light rail is a very useful and reletively cheap solution.

High capacity and fast as well.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

It is easier to implement in Paris, because it is not a car dependent city. The road space is available to build on. These new trams are being built to integrate with the existing and very efficient system.

The traffic congestion in Paris even with all the public transport is as bad as Dublin. The had to build massive underground car parks in the citycentre to deal with the parking problem. It may not be a car dependent city to the extent that Dublin is, but they are addicted to their cars there. The public transport options seem to mean little to millions of Parisians on a daily basis. They still drive right into the heart of the city as their first transport option. Like Dublin and Athens, car ownership is a cultural thing as well as transport.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

In Dublin the luas integrates with virtually nothing and hasn't even put a small dent in addressing congestion.

Intergrates with Dart, Suburban and Mailline rail at two locations, while the Phoenix Park Tunnel is left to rot by CIE. Any of its shortcommings are not the fault of Luas at all. In fact, considering the extreme limitations placed on it by "the Gap" and the 30M trans on the Tallaght line, Luas has been incredibly successful. It has even done a lot to fill in urban density. Luas and Metro may actually be the answer to the sprawl in a chicken and egg kinda way. There is certainly plently of anecdotal evidence to suggest this.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Our existing rail system is a badly planned joke. Government priority rates it as low to middling. (while it actually has the potential to put a big dent in congestion.)

But the rail lines are limited by their victorian geographic locations. The Interconnector will do a lot to helping this historical legacy out. Otherwise Luas and Metro is the best way to deal with legacy of the Liam Lawlors and Ray Burkes. And it's a worthwhile and intelligent solution at that. Unless you can build a Tardis and go back to the 1960's, there is no other option to an exapanded Luas and Metro.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

Metro North and Metro west are by my reckoning already outdated concepts before a sod has been turned. I remain unconvinced that this new "light metro" concept can help Dublin. Furthermore I don't believe that any of the proposed Luas lines will ease things either.

Light Rail and Light Metros are being built in cities all over the world. If Dublin is outdated then so will Oporto, Amsterdam, Boston, Melbourne, Portland, Hanover and Paris. Dublin will be in very good "out dated" company.

Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler

You see, its about proper planning. We need to examine car commuting patterns and congested routes. Ascertain the reasons for using the car on these routes. Study the existing and future locations of high employment Industrial/business parks and their requirements for public transport. When we have done that we can start solving the problems.

This is what T21 is. The DTO did some pretty impressive traffic management modelling and all this stuff is well known and accepted. Things are happening, not fast enough, but the ball is finally moving at last. T21 is not perfect, but compared to what we being offered in the mid 1990's it is a dream come true.

T21 is the best offer we are going to get - deal with it. Rather than attacking it constantly how about trying to influence it and bend the envelope towards getting the PPT and Drumcondra Rail/Bus Interchange, direct curves at Clonmel and Athenry included. Adaptability within T21 rather than outright hostility or just hopping it'll go away. Cos' it ain't goona happen.