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-   -   Four-Car DART in evening peak ? (http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=14372)

Inniskeen 20-06-2012 20:52

Four-Car DART in evening peak ?
 
The 1847 Pearse to Howth was a four-car unit this evening. Is this a once off or an economy measure ? The same set may well have formed the 1630 from Malahide to Greystones due to depart Pearse at 1701.

While there were a few standing on the northbound service, many of these were travelling from Pearse and Tara Street to Connolly in order to connect with other services. I got a seat without difficulty at Pearse.

Mark Gleeson 20-06-2012 20:55

That service was 8 coach earlier in the week

However there has been the usual seasonal drop in peak commuters (no schools, universities and holidays) so numbers are down, but since you got a seat doesn't seem to be a problem with a 4 coach.

karlr42 20-06-2012 22:02

Yeah, it passed southbound through Pearse about half 6 and pulled all the way up, awful lot of people walking up the length of the platform to get to it.

Inniskeen 21-06-2012 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlr42 (Post 68304)
Yeah, it passed southbound through Pearse about half 6 and pulled all the way up, awful lot of people walking up the length of the platform to get to it.

That must have been another 4-car set, the one I saw was at 1847 northbound. I was curious as to whether the 1701 southbound as also a four car as this would normally be the previous working.

Eddie 21-06-2012 18:58

And I was on a 4 carriage southbound Dart around 8.30am today. You usually only see these on a Sunday.

Thomas Ralph 24-06-2012 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlr42 (Post 68304)
Yeah, it passed southbound through Pearse about half 6 and pulled all the way up, awful lot of people walking up the length of the platform to get to it.

That is correct operating procedure where stop boards are not provided on the platform train drivers are meant to stop at the opposite end of the platform to where they entered the station.

karlr42 24-06-2012 16:47

I know that, and I don't have a problem with it at all, just that it can be very inconvenient and distressing for passengers(especially infrequent travellers like tourists) and leads to high loadings in the rear carriage as well as delays caused by waiting for people to reach the train(worsening the pedestrian timing of DART services).

The fact that it is easily solved with extra screens at a 4/6 car stop at strategic stations like Pearse which has all its amenities at one end, or just an extra line in the PIS, is just symptomatic of IE's don't-care attitude.

James Howard 24-06-2012 19:16

The stopping location certainly seems to be random on services further out. For some reason, this has started happening recently on the evening train I use most of the time. It was perfectly fine to stop a 3 car 22k at the convenience place three weeks ago but now it has to go to the end of the platform leaving everybody with a nice long walk.

It is fine for most people but for elderly or disabled passengers this would be major inconvenience - particularly when you walk the length of the carpark to get out of the station. It is also not nice if it is lashing rain and you've forgotten to bring a coat.

This kind on inconsistency and lack of consideration for passengers is pretty much typical from Irish Rail in my experience. While a lot of staff do their job well, there is a minority that give out the impression that their life would be a lot easier if there weren't any passengers and they appear to be able to get away with it.

Pilotman 25-06-2012 10:11

I think you might find that it has something to do with the fact that some Drivers can't be trusted to stop in an appropriate place on the platform consistent with the number of coaches they have behind them.

Some have been known to stop 'short' on a platform leaving a few coaches off the end of the platform and then release the doors to open - mind the fall or mind the gap comes to mind.

There is also the problem with lack of enough CCTV's on the platforms.

Automatic announcements should be made on the platform so that passengers know where the train is going to stop and so avoid the stampede when the train vanishes off to the other end of the platform.

karlr42 26-06-2012 17:54

There are definitely at least two 4-car Japanese sets doing the rounds today, just saw them on two concurrent northbound services. The one I mentioned in the thread earlier was a 2x2 German set, so I guess there is a trend now. It is nice to see a tiny bit of operational flexibility by IE, just wish they would go the whole hog and not inconvenience passengers in the process.

Inniskeen 26-06-2012 21:56

Four car DARTs were in evidence on Monday working amongst other services, the 0725 Bray/Howth, 0845 Howth/Bray, 1645 Howth/Bray.

Four car DARTs were again in evidence on Tuesday working amongst other services, the 1627 Bray/Howth and 1745 Howth/Bray.

While none of these services were spectacularly overcrowded they were a bit full to the rear with a few seats available to the front.

Mickey H 28-06-2012 09:39

yesterday (27.06) there were at least three 8600 class DART sets running as 4 car sets instead of 8 and at least one 8100 running as 4 instead of 6. This latter was the 1627 Bray-Howth which was grossly overcrowded leaving Pearse

Inniskeen 29-06-2012 01:11

Saw the 1627 Bray/Howth at Pearse yesterday (Thursday) and it was ahgain a four-car set. There were a few standing, nothing spectacular though !

ACustomer 29-06-2012 09:24

Well, if there were a few standing at Pearse, it must have been pretty jammed by the time it had picked up passengers at Tara St and Connolly.

karlr42 05-07-2012 18:35

Irish Rail have put a scrolling message on the platform displays asking people to move past the midway point of platforms due to the possibility of 4 car trains.

Colm Moore 01-08-2012 02:15

Iarnród Éireann rejects fears over fewer Dart carriages
 
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...321232898.html
Quote:

Iarnród Éireann rejects fears over fewer Dart carriages
TIM O'BRIEN

REDUCTIONS IN the size of peak-hour Dart trains from eight carriages to four do not raise unsafe crowding issues, Iarnród Éireann has said.

The company said a number of trains at peak travel times had been reduced from eight-carriage trains to four “to reflect demand over the holiday period when passenger numbers drop”.

During the day, trains may be made up of either two, four, six or eight carriages, depending on demand, according to Iarnród Éireann. The company also said the reduction in train size was in line with its cost-reduction programme.

Responding to anecdotal complaints of over-crowding on morning peak services into the city, spokesman Barry Kenny said there was no specific figure to describe the number of passengers a carriage could carry. He said customers may expect trains to be “fully laden to European norms” which were “nowhere near Japanese or Indian norms”.

Mr Kenny said the options open to the company were to reduce services, frequencies or carriage numbers.

In relation to intercity services, he said situations where passengers were standing in the aisles and in the lavatories were “more rare now than they used to be” and the aim of the company was that each passenger should have a seat.

However, he accepted that at peak time this was not always the case.

Mr Kenny said there were “no health and safety issues” with people standing in the corridors and lavatories. Trains were designed to be easily evacuated. “Rail is still the safest mode of land transport.”

In relation to the Dart, he said capacities had been reducing since May “in line with seasonal demand, while maintaining the number of departures, to save costs on electrical power and maintenance”. Mr Kenny said that for the morning peak, from 7am-9am, departures from Greystones had been reduced by just two carriages to a total of 76 carriages. However, for the evening peak, from 4pm- 6.30pm, capacity had been reduced by 20 carriages to 66.

On the southbound services from Howth-Malahide in the morning, capacity had been reduced by six to 84 carriages. The evening peak on this route saw a reduction of 18 to 80 carriages.

In relation to reports of unpleasant experiences with crowds on smaller trains, Mr Kenny said commuter numbers were down at this time of the year, and the numbers were being monitored by Iarnród Éireann.

Anecdotal reports suggest some passengers are standing for their entire journey, while at some stations some intending passengers were standing back and awaiting later trains.

In the two years to 2005, Iarnród Éireann spent in excess of €185 million upgrading the service by lengthening platforms and improving accessibility for the disabled. Another €80 million was spent on 40 new carriages.

At the time, then minister for transport Martin Cullen described the improvements as “immense and permanent”.

Inniskeen 01-08-2012 08:51

Are these punters for real ?

While there has clearly been a very significant drop in DART usage to the extent that many peak services can be handled by four-car sets, the management of DART sets is idiotic and illogical. Eight-car sets ramble around at night on services which could easily be covered by a two-car train with plenty of seating capacity to spare.

Given the competition for slots to accommodate atill busy northern and western services it makes little sense to be running short formation DART trains at peak periods. Subject to maintaining a minimum frequency (15 minutes) the DART peak service should be culled to the point that full advantage is being taken of the expensively provisioned capability of running 8-car trains. Only when these are loaded to the same density as other commuter services should DART frequency be extended.

While rationalisation of DART services would tend to reduce peak frequency on the Howth branch, this could be offset by running a shuttle service between Howth and Howth Junction to increase the number of service options available.

karlr42 01-08-2012 14:08

Another piece of idiotic rolling stock management is the increasing use of 22ks at peak times. Yesterday morning I was crammed into the vestibule of a 3 car 22k on the 7:45 Maynooth Connolly along with 12 or so others, the aisles were full as well and I'm fairly sure we left people behind at Ashtown. The trains are completely unsuitable for commuter use.

Inniskeen 01-08-2012 22:22

The 22ks are not unsuitable for commuter use, indeed the majority of the passengers they carry are commuters.

They are certainly unsuitable for inner suburban services (with the possible exception of the kightly used KRP). Don't see any problem using them to Portlaoise, Athlone, Carlow and Wexford as well as on limited stop services to Longford and Dundalk.

Apart from being unsuitable for heavily loaded inner suburban services, usage on such services represents a lost opprtunity to improve longer distance commuter services, many of which have proven particularly vulnerable to fast and cheaper bus services.

karlr42 01-08-2012 22:28

Yes, sorry, that is what I meant, inner suburban services.

James Howard 02-08-2012 12:38

Whatever happened to the promise about all services long than 1 hour getting 22Ks? It is idiotic to see 29ks being used for Longford runs when they are using 22ks on Maynooth services.

The outer commuter services really need a bit of a re-think. Two of the three early Longford services are currently served by 29Ks as is a pointless 9PM positioning service. Currently these have to be 29Ks as they do double-duty as Maynooth services and stop everywhere.

It would make the service from Longford and Mullingar a lot more attractive if they could find a way to run these as 22Ks and have them express between Maynooth and Drumcondra (Possibly with a stop at Clonsilla). The could also get away with shorter trains if they were to do this.

The Longford service currently ties up 12 29k cars (plus 6 22Ks for the early morning Sligo train which is really a commuter service). They could probably get this down to 6 22k cars if they went with having the services express to/from Maynooth - although at a guess the later train would probably need 6 cars as a 7:30 express from Maynooth would probably be very popular with Maynooth commuters.

karlr42 02-08-2012 14:27

That's certainly my feeling, anything going to or from west of Maynooth should skip out the inner stations that have a more frequent service, like Drogheda and Rosslare services skip out DART stations. The problem I'm sure is signalling and congestion, so this probably won't happen unless the DARTification of the Maynooth line goes ahead.

James Howard 02-08-2012 18:31

It almost certainly wouldn't work in the evening as the timings on the Sligo line are too reliable in the evening. But in the morning, it should be relatively feasible to have a stopping train leave Maynooth 5 minutes after an express which would then just about catch the previous stopping train by the time it got as far as Drumcondra.

karlr42 03-10-2012 18:56

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking49.html

Use of 4cars set to continue. I don't really have a problem with this, I saw plenty of them today in the peak and they looked busy, not crush-laden, but if this to become a permanent thing Irish Rail need to start looking at 'innovations' like stop markers to help speed up boarding at places like Tara St and Pearse southbound and Connolly p7 northbound.

Eddie 03-10-2012 19:50

What's frustrating is having 6-cars in the evening (when presumably there's no-one to decouple the carriages) but 4-cars during the peak.

If they have to have smaller trains, at least exhaust the off-peak possibilities first.

shweeney 04-10-2012 11:15

1800 southbound from Pearse to Greystones was a 4 carriage last night. OK, it wasn't quite Japanese levels of crush, but the Greystones trains always have a few extra people on them, I didn't get a seat until Bray.

Standing for 10-15 minutes is fine, 40 minutes is pushing it (and genuinely will persuade potential passengers to drive instead). Irish Rails solution to falling passenger numbers and revenue is to raise prices, reduce frequency and make the service less comfortable - I'd like to know which business school they attended. (& how much do they save by running shorter trains anyway?)

Inniskeen 04-10-2012 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlr42 (Post 69403)
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking49.html

Use of 4cars set to continue. I don't really have a problem with this, I saw plenty of them today in the peak and they looked busy, not crush-laden, but if this to become a permanent thing Irish Rail need to start looking at 'innovations' like stop markers to help speed up boarding at places like Tara St and Pearse southbound and Connolly p7 northbound.

During a short period at Pearse from 1725 to 1745 on Tuesday last, I saw three 8-car 8100 sets two northbound, one southbound. Each of these services had about 250 passengers each. Substitute a low seating density 4-car 8600 and there is an outcry as a significant proportion of passengers have to stand. Also people are less than impressed to find virtually empty 8-car 8600s rattling around on late evening services when Irish Rail are spinning that four-car trains are necessary at peak periods as a cost saving measure. What cost are bing avoided ? If energy costs are being targeted then 8-car trains should only appear on workings directly associated with the peak period with sets being reduced to two or four-car units at the earliest opportunity thereafter. This is clearly not what Irish Rail are doing - so what is actually going on ? Are sets being mothballed ? prepared for sale ?

Incidentally there were two northbound commuter services formed by 8-car 2900s during this period, both of which had about 600 passngers departing Pearse.

dowlingm 04-10-2012 13:03

It's a bit of a catch 22 - if you avoid energy costs by right-sizing the train to the time of day you add the costs involved with pulling the trains into the yard and assembling/splitting the consists.

Colm Moore 04-10-2012 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dowlingm (Post 69411)
It's a bit of a catch 22 - if you avoid energy costs by right-sizing the train to the time of day you add the costs involved with pulling the trains into the yard and assembling/splitting the consists.

But the already have a mix of 4/6/8 car trains, no need to assemble/split, just move from siding to platform.

Mark Gleeson 04-10-2012 13:35

Split operation takes no more than 3 minutes, if you allow for the walking and standing around

A join operation is 30 seconds.

Unlike the UK Irish Rail's don't have go through crazy computer restarts to couple up, its more like couple and go

Eddie 04-10-2012 22:50

I was on a peak hour 4-carriage dart this evening heading out of town. It was close to resembling a peak hour tube train in London.

Normally I'm lucky enough to be travelling in the opposite direction to the masses.

One of the things that used to really appeal to me about Dublin was its lack of rush hour train crushes.

Exactly what is the saving associated with reducing a dart by each set of two carriages per journey?

Jamie2k9 05-10-2012 01:37

Why are people still making such issues over this, Dublin Bus and Luas are always crammed during rush hour so why do people expect to have a seat on a dart or not have to stand for short period of time. People have to stand on Intercity services which should not happen but it does. You are traveling on a urban train they are meant to be packed. Any yes I use the Dart every 2 days during rush hour and I have to stand even though its not ideal its no different to the bus or luas.

Do people from Maynooth, Dundalk, Wexford, Kildare etc have constant rants about standing....

Inniskeen I also saw a few darts on Wednesday evening. A mix of 4,6,8 sets and TBH most were fine. The 4 car sets were a little cramped which is normal but in general everything seemed ok.

Time for people to deal with it as its not going to change anytime soon so no point in ranting about it.

essoII 05-10-2012 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 (Post 69419)
Why are people still making such issues over this


It just seems illogical to run 4 carriage rush hour DARTs and (as I observed last night on 10.30pm Pearse-Greystones DART) 8 carriage off peak DARTs if it is being hailed as a cost saving measure.

Inniskeen 05-10-2012 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by essoII (Post 69420)
It just seems illogical to run 4 carriage rush hour DARTs and (as I observed last night on 10.30pm Pearse-Greystones DART) 8 carriage off peak DARTs if it is being hailed as a cost saving measure.

Either Irish Rail are not telling the truth about this issue or are utterly incapable of implementing their own policy. First thing to be cut in size should be unnecessary 6, 8 and even 4 car off peak services. The only over sized off peak services should be those that have either just formed a peak service or are just about to form a peak service.

karlr42 05-10-2012 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 (Post 69419)
Why are people still making such issues over this, Dublin Bus and Luas are always crammed during rush hour so why do people expect to have a seat on a dart or not have to stand for short period of time.

Because the capacity and ability is there for people not to have to stand, it's just not being used. I understand it's normal to stand on a rush hour commute across the world, but usually that's because the system is running to capacity, all trains are being used, the sidings and depots are empty except for units under maintenance- but regardless the amount of people demanding service means that there is still crush condition. Here we are artificially imposing crush on ourselves when there is no need, there is spare capacity in the form of extra carriages that is just not being used. That's not acceptable.

shweeney 05-10-2012 15:05

Irish rail spent a lot of (our) money buying new trains, refurbishing the old ones so they could run in 8 car sets, extending platforms etc.

I appreciate that passenger numbers may have dropped (though I'd debate by how much, many of the industries hit by the recession would not have contributed much to the DART numbers, & there's still plenty of students and schoolkids). I don't mind standing for a bit, and if they genuinely had no additional capacity available I'd accept it, but its a bit galling to find yourself jammed into someone's armpit for half an hour when you know they have carriages sitting around Fairview doing nothing.

Jamie2k9 05-10-2012 21:25

Quote:

I appreciate that passenger numbers may have dropped (though I'd debate by how much, many of the industries hit by the recession would not have contributed much to the DART numbers, & there's still plenty of students and schoolkids). I don't mind standing for a bit, and if they genuinely had no additional capacity available I'd accept it, but its a bit galling to find yourself jammed into someone's armpit for half an hour when you know they have carriages sitting around Fairview doing nothing.
So lets say around 440,000 unemployed I estimate at least 150,000 around Dublin area if only 20,000 used to use IR servces then I would say its quiet a drop.

Thousands leaving the cournty monthly. Many non Irish nationals have left and most only used public transport.

Transport has being hit most during the downturn. Take avation Dublin Airport has lost 5 million passengers since the peak in 2008 why is because people are not travling and the same applies to trains, buse.

I don't have any sort of figues but from what I saw on Wednesday I would like to know how 8 car sets were justified for so long.

Quote:

prepared for sale ?

Lets get real they are not going to be sold as nobody would want to buy them.

And for people giving out about standing for 15-30 minutes then you need to use trains on Waterford line everymorning. Passengers standing for 60-70 minutes and there is lots of capacity that could be added but its not.

essoII 06-10-2012 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 (Post 69424)
So lets say around 440,000 unemployed I estimate at least 150,000 around Dublin area if only 20,000 used to use IR servces then I would say its quiet a drop.

Thousands leaving the cournty monthly. Many non Irish nationals have left and most only used public transport.

Transport has being hit most during the downturn. Take avation Dublin Airport has lost 5 million passengers since the peak in 2008 why is because people are not travling and the same applies to trains, buse.

I don't have any sort of figues but from what I saw on Wednesday I would like to know how 8 car sets were justified for so long.


Lets get real they are not going to be sold as nobody would want to buy them.

And for people giving out about standing for 15-30 minutes then you need to use trains on Waterford line everymorning. Passengers standing for 60-70 minutes and there is lots of capacity that could be added but its not.


What's the basis of your point? There are still 8 carriage DARTs running off peak hours that have not been formed for the purpose of entering a scheduled peak service time.

Originally Irishrail stated the 4 carriage DARTs were used for peak services during summer months when no colleges or schools were on. With the new school/college term initiated over a month ago, there has not been no response in terms of carriage numbers for peak hour services to the increased demand.

Either Irishrail management are completely incompetent or there is something they are not telling us.

Jamie2k9 06-10-2012 21:18

Quote:

I appreciate that passenger numbers may have dropped (though I'd debate by how much
From the 2030 report:

2011 - 15.9 million
2010 - 16.8 milliom
2009 - 17.5 million

Has the above trend contuined into 2012?

Quote:

What's the basis of your point? There are still 8 carriage DARTs running off peak hours that have not been formed for the purpose of entering a scheduled peak service time.

Only reason I picked Carlow/Waterford route was because I use it a lot and see it and I am guessing that passengers pay much more for tickets and they have to stand compared to Dart passengers.

Thomas Ralph 06-10-2012 21:37

The problem with 4-car trains (and which would be worse again with 2-cars) is that people stand all over the platform and get no indication until the train pulls in of (a) where the train will stop or (b) how long it is. This means higher dwell time while the train waits for everyone to get on.

Over here the PIS tells you how many coaches there are and there are stop boards which tell you where a train of a given length will stop.


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