Why is the 06:00 Cork to Dublin running 10 minutes late?
 

Hi,

Just wondering can anyone explain why the 06:00 Cork to Dublin train is running consistently 10 minutes late each morning for the last 3 weeks?

This impacts on several other trains, in my case the 07:44 from Ballybrophy and the 08:10 from Portlaoise (I go to Park West).

The guys in the office at Ballybrophy & Portlaoise have been unable (or unwilling) to give an answer.

Leaves? Track works? Driver slept it out?

Anyone?

Thanks.

Irish Rail replied to my tweet with the following link.

Linky

I'd say it's adhesion problems with the leaves. Same issue every year around this time of year unfortunately.

I don't really think you need to diminish your (legitimate) query with suggestions like "driver slept it out" - that's really a bit below the belt to be honest.

While we all may have gripes, I think that's taking things a bit too far.

@berneyarms

In the 3 weeks the 06:00 Cork-Dublin has been running late not a single staff member at Ballybrophy/Portlaoise was able to offer a reason why it was late. RPU staff were unable to offer a reason too. The RPU staff go in/out to the driver's cab a lot so you would think that the driver might know or just mention it in passing to them.

"diminish" seriously? :p my gripe, like other customers, is that I pay a lot of money over to Irish Rail each year and I would like a certain level of service (I can dream). Delays I can handle. Lack of information I can't handle. Inexcusable.

Traveled to Cork last week and there was no wheel slip or TSRs in place. Its an excuse which we put up with for 4 months.

Why cant they place one or two hundred more of those things on the rails or ever plaster the rail heads with the grit manually.

The invisible leaves that fall on Irish Railways are amazing!

Thanks Jamie2k9, I'm not buying the leaves on the track excuse...certainly not for 3 weeks straight!

Train left Cork ontime this morning, arrived Dublin 6 minutes late

Delay issue appeared to be in the North Cork/Tipperary area

I can understand issues since about last Friday, but was there really much leaf fall before that? Given that we had one of the warmest and driest Septembers in a long time? http://www.westmeathexaminer.ie/news...ber-on-record/

I'm not excusing a lack of information - that is just not good enough, and of course you are entitled to an explanation of why the train is running late. I think any delay should be explained. It is something IE are atrocious at.

And thinking about it, leaf fall would really only have impacted since the end of last week. So like you I'm kinda at a loss to explain it - you'd need to be on to them every day.

But let's be honest, including a comment such as "driver slept it out" is a bit insulting to staff. Do you really think that staff are going to turn up late for work on a regular basis? I understand (and agree with) your frustration, but I just think that comment's a bit uncalled for.

All the evidence shows the train leaves on time

Is there an extra temporary speed restriction (TSR) along the line possibly?

The 06:00 and 07:00 are very tightly timetabled with little slack if an additional TSR is put in place.

The Limerick shuttle usually has a lot to explain when it comes to OTP. Was that on time.

As for times the same as all routes and gets 5/6 minutes lee way and it would take a lot of TSR to make it late. Given the 07.00 does the same time with an extra stop the 06.00 should of being able to absorb a couple of TSRs if they were in place. Did the 07.00 run to time?

maybe the driver has a snooze at the junction.

The 0600 is not tightly timed, assuming its an ICR. I recently came up from Cork on the 1620, six scheduled stops in 2.45. We arrived 13 minutes early: 2.32 for six stops, so 2.30 for 3 stops should be easy. And by the way there were severe TSRs at Lisduff and Kildare.

Highly unlikely to be a staff issue - no doubt somebody is late now and again but drivers normally sign on well in advance of scheduled departure time and in any event an alternative driver would typically be available in Cork.

Driving style can significantly affect train punctuality, some drivers drift along at speeds well below the speed limit or are excessively cautious in braking or are slow to accelerate. Some drivers exibit more than one of the above tendencies and consequently services run late as a result.

In this instance I would guess that the predominant issue is a combination of wheelslip, TSRs and perhaps locomotives running with traction motor defects.

It's not an ICR - it's Mark 4 operated.

There is damn all recovery time in the 06:00 schedule.

Lisduff can no longer be classed as a TSR, its full time despite bran new points being installed. Such a waste of time and resources if there was no benefit. It would of being factored into timetabling in 2013 anyway.

Kildare has being TSRs for the last year on and off anytime it increase the speeds days lather its back to 25. Its being 25, 40, 50, 70 and 90 for a long time.

The 06.00 is well capable of doing the 2h30m, this mornings 07.00 was in a few minutes early so that puts any excuses of TSR and wheel slip out the window + the extra minute or two at Thurles.

Not an acceptable excuse all the same.

Drivers should be given a telling off for going under speed and making a service be late and its usually the drivers who spend more time concentrating on the horn instead of their foot.

I wasn't making an excuse, so please don't suggest I was. I don't think there is any need for that.

What I was getting at was that if there are any additional TSRs, then the 0600 is likely to be affected as it has little or no recovery built into the schedule.

But you still don't see my point and that is the 07.00 can complete the same 165 mile journey with an extra stop and the same TSRs in place on time and slightly early so whatever has delayed the 06.00 is either train or driver related. There is no difference between both services apart from the drivers so its either them or a problem with a set.

Over the 19 days between the 7th of September and the 8th of October the 0600 ex Cork was on time or early at Heuston on 5 occasions, no more 5 minutes late on a further 5 occasions and over 10 minutes late on 2 occasions.

Over the same period the 0700 ex Cork was on time or early at Heuston on 8 occasions, no more 5 minutes late on a further 1 occasion and over 10 minutes late on 6 occasions.

If anything the 0700 from Cork is a worse perming service than the 0600 from Cork. Using the IR standard of being on time if arriving within 10 minutes of booked time, the 0600 was on time 89% and the 0700 65%.

The argument about the 0700 v 0600 doesn't appear to have any substance in reality. It may well be the case that the 0600 being late at Portlaoise or other intermediate points is more significant as there is a greater potential to delay other services than is the case an hour later.

The earliest arrival of the 0600 at Heuston was 0825 and the latest 0845. The earliest arrival of the 0700 at Heuston was 0922 and the latest 0953.

Incidentally both trains have 3 intermediate stops.

The 06:00 Cork is causing delays to other services namely the the 07:44 from Ballybrophy (this is the 06:40am from Limerick) and it has also impacted the 08:10 commuter service from Portlaoise. It was on time yesterday morning (Wednesday, 8th Oct) but was running late again this morning...and yet again the staff in Ballybrophy/Portlaoise could not give a reason why. Incredible!!

Looking at the timetable it is tight at Limerick J. Only approx 8 minutes 06.57 (06.00) and the 06.40 would be arriving at the loop at round 07.05.

So the 06:00 Cork-Dublin was running late this morning by about 7 minutes.

I asked the Station Master in Ballybrophy what is the reason that this train is late for the last 3 weeks, with the exception of 1 or 2 days where it was on time. Is it leaves I asked? He replies no that it's not leaves that it is the Tralee to Mallow train that is causing it to be delayed. I inform him that there is no Tralee to Mallow train connecting with the 06:00 Cork-Dublin train. That it is infact the next Cork-Dublin train where the connection is. The silence is deafening.

I send a tweet to IrishRail asking what is the reason for the delay this morning. The reply back that it is due to leaves. I reply back that the Station Master in Ballybrophy says it is not leaves that it is a connection at Mallow which is causing the delay when infact there is no connection for that train.

IrishRail tweet back apologising for the misinformation that it was a mechanical fault at Mallow and it was causing a 20 minute delay on the 06:00 Cork-Dublin service. Meanwhile I have arrived at Portlaoise. I get out and wait for the 08:10 commuter train.

While I'm waiting I ask the Station Master at Portlaoise what the reason for the delay is and was it infact 20 minutes late because I timed it at being 7 minutes late. He confirms that there was no mechanical fault and that it was running 7-8 minutes late and most likely would arrive on time in Heuston.

I get on the 08:10 Portlaoise commuter train. I reply back to Irish Rail stating what the Station Master in Portlaoise has just said. Irish Rail tweet back that the delay was due to ongoing Engineering works.

:rolleyes:

So I didn't have a boring morning guys.

Are there Engineering works? I wasn't aware of any.

LOL

Frankly intermediate station staff are not going to know the reason for that sort of delay (10 minutes) on the day itself (unless it's something major) - the only people who will are the driver and CTC staff. All that the station staff are going to know is that the train is running late. They don't have access to the CTC systems and rely on information alerts being issued, which I'd imagine is unlikely for that level of delay.

You'd need to take it up at a higher level within the organisation sending detailed information (delays and dates).

I'd imagine that it's down to TSRs somewhere and now the leaves aren't helping.

The 0600 from Cork was on time leaving Mallow this morning, 2 minutes late leaving Limerick Junction, 7 minutes late at Thurles and on time at Heuston. The 0640 from Limerick was approaching Heuston about 1 minute late. The 0810 from Portlaoise was about 4 minutes late at Parkwest due to precedence being correctly given at Kildare to the late running 0710 from Waterford.

The running of the 0600 from Cork had no impact on the vast majority of passengers using Heuston bound services this morning or indeed most mornings over the last 3 weeks. Perhaps 3 or 4 passengers travelling from one intermediate station to another might have been delayed.

As for the information you were given 95% of passengers are fobbed off with nonsense which may well be sincerely imparted based on nonsense information received from others. The station master in Ballybrophy would not be able to accurately estabish the reason for the delay to the 0600 and would have to rely on others.

@Inniskeen maybe it has had no major impact this morning but it has been having plenty of impact over the last 3 weeks for me getting to work on time at Park West. If they are unable to provide accurate information then simply say they do not know the reason why.

There is no reason at all why Irish Rail staff couldn't have twitter installed on their phones so that they could keep up with announcements from the main twitter feed.

Are station staff issued with phones - I see enough staff around Connolly talking on phones but perhaps they are personal calls.

At the very least they have phones in the office and are well capable of making a call and find out the reason why (our regular station master at Ballybrophy does this). Whether or not he gets the correct reason is another story!

I very much doubt that station staff are issued with company mobiles. That would not be a very wise use of company resources.

OP - I'm certainly not trying to come across as unsympathetic, but you need to raise this at a higher level - i.e. the managers.

Station staff are only going to know what they've been told, and I would imagine their main focus is on how long the trains are delayed as opposed to what's causing it. Most people will be more interested in this piece of information rather than the cause.

I appreciate it's causing a bigger problem for you and you ought to raise this with the Customer Relations section at Heuston, specifying dates, delays and the impact it is having on your journey.

Contact them at Customer Relations, Heuston Station, Dublin 8.

That would be the same customer relations team in charge of the Twitter Account?

Let us forget all of our various theories for one moment. Here is a regular passenger. S/he relies upon the train to get to work on time, which has not been happening of late. they would like an explanation. Well, not "an explanation" in Irish Rail terms which appears to consist of pulling any old yarn out of ones arse. they would like the truth. maybe this "truth" thing will allow the passenger to made a decision on using the train to get to work on time on a medium to long term basis.

I have been doing the RUI/P11 gig for well over 10 years and I am still amazed to find that on this board and elsewhere ordinary joes get lectured by know it alls that they should realise a station manager isnt management despite that being his or her title or some other such nit picking twaddle.

the only contact that the vast majority of passengers have with Irish Rail are the station staff in their locality and the ticket checker on the train, not some faceless suit in Heuston. They are entitled to rely upon what those people say as being correct, when it is not correct it is irish rails fault, and nobody else's.

it is not the responsibility of a passenger to run from billy to jack to get to the truth about one little fact. it is the responsibility of irish rail to ensure that the passenger is given the correct information on the spot.

the fact that the twitter account cannot do this either suggests that the lights are on but nobody is at home. it would be interesting to see which version of events customer services plumbs for.

maybe, you know, they could ask the driver. this after all is what the passenger suggested in the first place. but, what would we know, eh?

With respect - I was only trying to be helpful.

Being described as "lecturing" and as a "know it all" is frankly nothing short of abusive trolling. I don't see any need for it.

I've already stated several times that I agree that the information flow is unacceptable. Let's be honest though, when something goes wrong, 9 times out of 10 staff on the ground at stations, airports or on buses are the last people to find out what's going on.

All I was trying to do was suggest a practical solution that might highlight the need to change the timetable if necessary to management.

Obviously that is deemed to be lecturing from a know it all.

With respect, that is frankly a pathetic response. Why don't you focus on doing something about it rather than abusing other people?

There will always be some variance in train running for all sorts of reasons many of which have already been enumerated in this thread.

The dissemination of accurate and timely information through appropriate channels is not Irish Rail's forte - hundreds of people were allowed board trains on the northern line last Monday without being told that the line was closed at Raheny due to damaged overhead line equipment. Irish Rail were aware of the problem before 0600 but did not effectively communicate the information with the result that most passengers had no idea until being unceremoniously dumped on the tender mercies of Dublin Bus at Malahide.

What is the issue here ? - accurate information in respect of a train which the passenger concerned doesn't use or the failure to deliver that passenger on time at Park West. While late running of the 0600 from Cork has the potential to impact other services the degree of padding in the schedules of this and other services relevant to this discussion suggests that this is not a significant problem. As far as I can see the 0810 from Portlaoise is normally on time or no more a few minutes late at Parkwest.

There are a lot of trains that have systemic delays and have had them for years. For example, the 1905 Sligo train is rarely less than 7 or 8 minutes late at Edgeworthstown and the delay is due to waiting at Killucan for the 1800 from Sligo which never seems to be able to make it up on time. I see little point in getting updated information about these kind of delays since it will just be the same "operational issues" excuse every day with a bit of "poor rail adhesion" thrown in for a variety at this time of year. I have long since given up worrying about them and just consider them with a kind of detached amusement as it is lot looking like Irish Rail care about them and so why should I.

The priority is really to deal with these systemic delays. I can think of two ways of addressing the issues with the train that affects me - they could grant the 1905 a bit more priority and allow it push on if it reaches Killucan before the 1800 reaches Mullingar as it generally has about 10 times the passenger load. The other option would be to alter the timetable so that the 1905 leaves at 1910 or 1915 and so would have a realistic schedule. Neither option would cost Irish Rail a penny.

IE will never make timetable changes unless they are really forced to. They felt it was perfectly acceptable to allow services operate to/from Galway/Westport 20-30 minutes late daily for 6 months before they changed.

Maybe the boys in the control center don't want to manually re program services into the signalling system after all its such hard work... :rolleyes:

Folks several post recently have been a little unkind.

Sure Irish Rail has some human resources problems, but there is no evidence of staff coming to work late etc.

Please keep discussion factual

hey, i cant help but be honest in my observations, and you went in with both feet on the OP in relation to their very very obvious joke in the first post and took it from there.

ironically it reminds me of the way that IR staff just throw out excuses on the hop and hope that the passenger will go away. It seems to be company policy, there are a few very interesting pages of posts on boards.ie about the fallen tree on the DART line last week - the exact same thing here.

the main point of this thread is how come nobody in a station can give the correct factual answer to a very important question by a passenger. The answer is not "you're asking the wrong person" and implying they are at fault.

They are asking the RIGHT person. That person does not know the answer and THEY are at fault.

You want to know what we are doing about it? We're having a meeting tomorrow as it happens and we will be bringing it up with IE. What we will not be doing is taking it out on the passengers for not having the wits to complain to Heuston Station.

Well, if you are talking to somebody at Irish Rail, Twitter would be a very obvious solution to their problem. 90% of the population of the country would already have a device capable of receiving tweets and this would include the station staff.

I wouldn't necessarily say the Irish Rail staff-member is at fault. It is just like everything else customer-related at Irish Rail - they are entirely lacking in process and procedure. The individual staff members can be great - I've always found the ticket checkers on the Sligo line and the station staff at Edgeworthstown to be extremely helpful.

I don't particularly want to have a "ding dong" discussion but I will make the following points:

Maybe the "driver slept it out" comment was a joke? Or maybe it wasn't? I don't know, but I can imagine that it could very easily be taken up the wrong way, hence my comment. All too often throwaway comments like that are posted in online discussions (not necessarily here), and they are not jokes, and frankly they can be viewed as insulting to hard working staff.

The OP quite correctly is annoyed that his/her train is being delayed - nowhere have I said otherwise. In fact I completely agreed with them. I also said that the lack of proper information is completely unacceptable.

The OP is then asking people on the ground in two stations what is delaying a train that does not stop at either of those two stations - hence my comment that it is unlikely that they are going to know the answer to that. I don't think that is an unreasonable observation. The focus of station staff would be on the train that the OP is waiting for - and how long it is being delayed for. Hence I would disagree that the staff members in the stations are entirely at fault - they rely on what they are told.

The fundamental problem here is the information flow from CTC to customers and staff on the ground, and in particular when something goes wrong. It is clearly not good enough and not fit for purpose. That needs to change. Hopefully your meeting tomorrow will come up with some constructive solutions to that problem, because it urgently needs addressing.

However, in the meantime, my advice of contacting Heuston Customer Services was based on my own experience of issues like this with other transport companies - contact the managers directly. It tends to be the only way you a) get a proper answer and b) get things changed so that the problem is cleared up.

The "driver slept it out" was intended as a joke. And also why couldn't the driver sleep it out? They are human after all. I've slept it out on a few occasions.

Any how...I think I've found the real reason as to why the 06:00 Cork to Dublin service is running late (albeit making Heuston on time).

I was told that a cross over point is being installed in Thurles.

Does anybody know if this is true? And if so, how long would something like that take?

Thanks.

the 0640 from Limerick has been 10-15min late this week at Kildare and 5-10 at Heuston. Same issue?