[2-2-2008] Bray Greystones Closed
 

That vanished and was replaced by this

So I don't get this the 13:05 to Rosslare is running despite the rockfall

:confused:

Curiously the afternoon Gorey Maynooth train has just rolled past me, curious that for a closed line, seems like they are recovering the train back to Dublin leaving the folks in Wicklow with no early morning train tomorrow

Not the best day for this to happen.

From AA Roadwatch

Far too many bus transfers here

Unless there has actually been structural damage to the line I honestly can't see why this landslide will shut the line between Greystones and Bray tomorrow and possibly the next day. This is a massive disruption for Greystones residents including myself...is there a chance the line could open tomorrow?

Chances are looking bad. Our reports indicate that the line is not actually blocked but there is a risk of loose rocks falling on trains unless secured.

To be honest this could be the end of the Rosslare line

The exact location is about 25 minutes walk from Bray station just before the first tunnel, the rock face is almost vertical at that point, its only accessible on foot. Bray Head is strange by virtue of the fact the rock strata are at a 45 degree angle not nicely layered on top of each other so they just slide off

hyperbole much, Mark? Bear in mind this section of line once fell into the sea and the victorians managed to fix it. Now I'm not crediting IE with any sort of Victorian-levels of expertise or ingenuity, but securing rock-faces is a fairly common task for engineers the world-over, I'm sure its solvable.

how long was that line in Norn Iron closed for last year, it was a similar issue wasn't it?

I've walked around Bray Head many times in recent years, there has been a massive acceleration in the coastal erosion, there isn't any space to move. There have been far too many close calls with trains stopping short of rockfalls

Only long term alternative is to bore a new tunnel from Bray to Greystones, about 3.5km in length

Its going to take several days if not weeks to sort this mess out, Bus Eireann are going to make a killing with the new timetable and passengers are not going to come back when the line reopens

probably be much cheaper to cover over the existing track at the vulnerable points (disclaimer - I am not an engineer!)

passengers from Greystones certainly are going to come back as the DART, slow and all as it is, is substantially quicker and more comfortable than Dublin Bus. South of Greystones I think a substantial proportion of commuters already use BE. The 1725 Enniscorthy commuter train (probably the busiest on the line) discharges most of its passengers in Bray and Greystones.

For reference the exact location http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1

probably be much cheaper to cover over the existing track at the vulnerable points (disclaimer - I AM an engineer!) :D



That was my first thought 'shweeney'. The line wouldnt warrant any expenditure on tunnelling. Just takes some ingenuity.

The actual track bed is a big problem as the sea eats away at it, a fortune has been spent on coastal defense works

Long term the only way to reduce journey times and increase capacity is a new tunnel, that needs to be looked at now, not much point looking at it when the engineers come back one day and say they have to close permanently

Rockfall -> derailment -> train 50 feet drop head first into the sea

Brunel's Folly!
 

Cheers for the link Mark. The site is more inaccessible than I thought. Maybe expecting some ingenuity from IE was a mistake...

Bringing precast units to that area be it by sea or road seems quite impossible. Everything will have to come by rail and also fit through the preceding tunnels. Get your thinking hats on boys!

I still don't see tunnelling as an option at the moment given the expense but examining the feasibility of it is no harm. It need not be too long but just to link back with the line when it cuts inland.

you're talking about a 2-mile+ tunnel. It would cost an astronomical amount.

Straightforward straight single track tunnel through a solid enough rock with no stations or funny bits, given the number of tunnel boring machines and trained people who will be standing around post metro/interconnector it wouldn't be half as expensive as you might think

Interconnector was 1.4-1.8 billion for 5.4km with 5 stations and twin tunnels, probably get change out of 300 million for Greystones job

It will have to happen sometime, its 92 years since the last major works on the line to deal with the problems

problem is it never cuts back inland - the line hugs the cliffs from the end of the long-tunnel (greystones end) all the way into bray. to get away from the cliffs you'd have to have one tunnel right the way through.

half as expensive is still pretty f***ing expensive to connect up a relatively small commuter town. You'd have to double-track it as well, no point perpetuating the existing problems...

*gets out crayons*

You cant just say that the tunnel is for Greystones commuters alone! You're forgetting the entire catchment of passengers south of Bray all the way along the Rosslare line. If this sort of disruption is going to continue at a stage where rock fall is happening annually, a feasibility study for a new route through or round Bray Head should be undertaken.
It's a very good point that the expert knowledge in tunneling soon to come from the dublin rail tunnel projects could vastly reduce the cost of carrying out tunneling work inbetween Bray and Greystones.

passenger numbers on the rosslare line are poor and lot of potential passengers get the bus instead as its cheaper, more frequent, and no slower than the train.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of passengers travelling the Bray-Greystones section are only going to\from Greystones - I'd say its pretty high. Of course if there was a more regular and faster service to Wicklow and Arklow the numbers might improve.

Did a train make it through to Greystones?

Nope, Irish Rail are too lazy to update the computer system, it simply looks up the trains ID number and gets its start and destination from that

Any proposal to rebuild the Rosslare line between Bray and Wicklow, in my eyes is fantasy in the current financial climate. We are effectively talking of a brand new double track formation, much along the lines of the proposals made in the 1900's. You can clearly see the old deviation on the link supplied by Mark. To do that to serve Greystones (10,000 people), and Wicklow (5,000) does not seem worth it for the limited return on expenditure.

Passenger numbers have improved over the last few years, but speeds are still pedestrian. Considering the very nature of the route, I think it is inevitable that it has a difficult future ahead. Its a pity really from a sentimental perspective. From a practical perspective, I reckon they will have to throw in the towel eventually.

Covering up the most vulnerable parts of the route with a protective shelter from rockfalls seems to be the cheapest and most practical alternative. Thats how its done in the likes of Switzerland and Canada. The coastal erosion problem is another matter, its unique as railways go in that regard.

And it continues

aye "several weeks" for the Bray Head bit, sounds very bad.

Dermo - your population figures are a bit out of date - I agree though that it'll never be re-routed:

Greystones: 15k
Kilcoole: 3k
Wicklow: 10k
Rathdrum: 2k
Arklow: 12k
Gorey: 7k
Enniscorthy: 10k
Wexford: 18k

Total: 77k

I reckon we can all think of better places to spend 300 million rather than a tunnel for the Rosslare line..

Hmm, there is this project out west......

Easily could be no service to Greystones until March, maybe Easter just imagine the situation if NET was still in business in the current environment.

In recent years the number of incidents of closures on the route have increased massively. There will come a point

a) Close
b) Invest in a long term solution

If a long / medium term solution to this costs multiples tens of millions then we had better hope that the current economic condition doesn't deteriorate any further.

A full scale deviation involving a new tunnel is not a runner alas so unless these new remedial works solve the problem for another 5 years then there could be a problem.

For Greystones DART users and Gorey line commuters this is a complete nightmare :(

Are DART season tickets being accepted on DB services in the short term?
Are IE running their own buses in addition to regular DB services to help with deman?

Shuttle buses are running accepting all rail tickets from stations south of Bray. Extra buses have been hired also to cope with huge amount of passengers needing to be shuttled to Bray. This situation has actually gotten from bad to apocalyptic! What a coincidence there's been another landslip on a seperate part of the line at Arklow. Imagine now there was another landslide between Killiney and Dalkey stations as happens occasionally..I think the situation is being well handled though, we're not waiting long for a shuttle bus in mornings/evenings. We're looking at a few weeks of this closure according to the irishrail.ie. Never been a time where a feasibility study for a new track section has been so urgently needed imo..really is a disaster for co.Wicklow commuters.

Shuttle buses ceased to bring passengers to/from Greystones/Bray at around 5 earlier. Road (windgates hill road) between Bray and Greystones was impassable by road traffic *due to heavy snowfall*, a friend of mine ended up walking from Bray to Greystones (taking 1 and a half hours!). Its absolute chaos when the public transport system completely brakes down like this!

Obviously if the road is closed, its closed, but once again Irish Rail say nothing

Word in Dublin is many people have booked into hotels, to avoid the chaos of trying to get home and getting in tomorrow.

I have a strange feeling of being stranded without the DART and possibilty of having no bus shuttle to Bray...no college for me in the morning then!:) i'm far too reliant on public transport, i'm taking up driving!

well in fairness though NET was crazy - transporting ammonia by rail through Cork and up and down the country. All this should do wonders for stock shortages though right? :D

The main problem as I see is the sharp turn eastwards the line makes leaving Bray and the large residential area south of it. That makes it difficult to bring inland without huge CPOs etc. Also it's hard to justify spending a ton of money unless the timetabling limitations of the existing line are helped by it.

According to a staff member with whom I spoke yesterday, the problem south of Arklow will not be rectified and service reinstated between Gorey and Greystones until late this week.

The Irish Rail website expresses the hope that service will be restored sooner and hopefully, that is the correct version of how things stand.

No better news by the looks of it!

As a long time user of the Connolly/Rosslare Harbour line I have become use to breakdowns, crap rolling stock etc. but never a problem with rockfalls - I am intrigued by your reference to the massive increase of closures. Can you be a bit more specific? :)

one of the things that I noticed on the sign I saw at tara street yesterday was there were bus transfers at times it was asking people to get the 84/184 to bray/greystones particulary after morning and at weekends.

Also saying at those times rail passes would be accepted on dublin bus.

Good history of problems

• http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showth...ght=greystones (debris on line)
• http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showth...ght=greystones (OHLE fault)
• http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showth...ght=greystones (flooding)
• http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showth...ght=greystones (bad weather)
• http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showth...ght=greystones (OHLE fault)
• http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showth...ght=greystones (rock fall)
• http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showth...ght=greystones (signaling fault)

There was a incident on a Sunday afternoon in recent years where a train had to make an emergency stop due to rock fall as well not in that list, there are many other incidents obviously the list is not exhaustive. Most are minor rockfalls close to the railway and cause no real harm. Won't go into the closures during the DASH project and at night to deal with the tunnels. For 5 miles it sure clocks up the faults despite having only a fraction of the number of trains

There is a rockfall problem
There is serious coastal erosion
The exposed cliff alignment results in a high number of OHLE problems
The tunnels have other problems

A very large amount of money has been spent trying to hold back natures natural course. The risk assessment on the route seems to have mandated that derailment containment be provided continuously on the cliff and tunnel sections to ensure if a train did hit a rock fall chances where it would be prevented from fully leaving the track, I don't know of anywhere else similarly treated over such a length. Bray head is a geotechnical nightmare, its one of the most exposed to the elements places you are going to find and it has presented a massive ongoing challenge to engineers, it beat Brunel all those years ago.

Someone does need to get a thinking cap on and look long term as to how to deal with the inevitable. Digging the debris out and trying to bolt the rockface together is only buying time, 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? who knows. And we all can agree the reliability of Greystones services isn't great

A week on no clear statement on the duration of the closure, it wouldn't hurt for IE to post a photo to show the scale of the problem it would buy a little bit of understanding. It takes 15-20 minutes by bus so a revised timetable should be published to clarify the actual service from Greystones, in fact anyone with a weekly or monthly rail ticket should be allowed use the 184 and 84 buses as well for free. That would be what a customer focused operator would do, Irish Rail well we can dream

There's a photo of the fall in this weeks edition of The Wicklow Times. Cant upload it though. It shows two councellors from Wicklow co.co. standing next to the fall..It looks to me to be very small, literally like a few wheel barrow loads of rubble at the bottom of one of those safety nets. Honestly cant see how something seemingly so small and insignificant is causing the line to be closed indefinatly. Even the councellors think irishrail are not doing enough to solve the problem. No shuttle buses run between Bray and Greystones during offpeak times which i think is ridiculous. I own a monthly rail ticket and am having to pay for the 84/184 at these times. This is also the time many school children travelling to Greystones are waiting for buses, also having to pay...it really is a joke at this stage..